Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:53:03 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #157 - 16 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Ocoee Bacon (Frank Clay) 2. Changes in GM Hwang Ki's 1995 Edition (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 3. Re: Hapkido Kihap (Ray Terry) 4. Re: Martial Arts 101 (Ray Terry) 5. new dojang (Charles Richards) 6. RE: TKD Emphasizes Kicks? (Stovall, Craig) 7. Chung Do Kwan formation (Frank Clay) 8. Kung Fu and Kicking (Frank Clay) 9. NK (DPRK) (Frank Clay) 10. Chambering Kicks (Farral, Kim) 11. Martial Arts 101 (J R Hilland) 12. Hapkido Yelling (J R Hilland) 13. TKD and Self-defense (Burdick, Dakin R) 14. Re: ATA (Stovall, Craig) 15. Hapkido video review (ABurrese@aol.com) 16. North_vs_South (Robert Martin) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 07:58:04 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ocoee Bacon Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mike, I think the Feds would love nothing more than to have proof of him sending out that stuff. There is a trend of prosecution for that kind of thing. It would be great if that were to happen. One less con in the world. f. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:23:31 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Changes in GM Hwang Ki's 1995 Edition Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<<>>>> I believe that would be a result of a suit filed against Grandmaster Shin, Jae Chul when he left the "US Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation" (which he founded representing GM Hwang Ki in the US in 1968) and formed the World Tang Soo Do Association in 1982. The court ruled in favor of Grandmaster Shin that Tang Soo Do was a common use term and could not be trademarked in and of itself. Incidentally, I believe that also began the movement by the Moo Duk Kwan to use the term Soo Bahk Do which GM Hwang was able to trademark to distinguish itself as different. Thus the changes in GM Hwang's 1995 book. Danny Dunn --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Kihap To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 07:03:01 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > It is my understanding that in the original Hapkido taught by the founder > kihap's were used. Take a look at Hapki then reverse it and you have kihap, > .... Cheez, you can actually make that statement with a straight face? Reverse original and you get lanigiro... imagine that. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts 101 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 07:06:20 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > when was this Kukki-TKD developed? my Master learned from his Master the > same way...and I am pretty sure that it was pre-1970-ish HKD from Korea but > I am not entirely sure of the exact date. Sounds like an apocryphal story, no more. To see the original kicks of HKD watch Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu and also Sin Moo Hapkido. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 07:52:03 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] new dojang Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just a quick question for everyone. After 8 years of teaching tkd at a dance studio. I am going out on my own and starting my own school. What are some of the things that I need to look into in getting started. For the last 8 years I have been an employee at the studio and now I want to start teaching at my own school. James, Certainly something to be said for controlling your own dojang space. I can give you some free advice and resources off list, but I need to answer a few questions before I give my advice. For the rest of the list, I'm not hiding any "secrets," just taking all the Q&A off list to conserve space, etc. 1. Is this your own space, but still have a day a job or full time martial arts? 2. What is your student count, and tutition now? 3. Have you thought about what your current students would be willing to pay at the new place, and what the market price would be for new folks at the new place? 4. All that leads to how much lease can you afford now with say half of the students you have right now. Yes some will leave when you move 1 mile down the road so be prepared. 5. Do you have a partner or any Dedicated adults that are dependable AND capable of teaching on a REGULAR basis? That'l get me started and we can fill in the rest off-list. Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:54:45 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: TKD Emphasizes Kicks? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Well, since I was the one that used that phrase...it's just a generality based upon observation and experience. If you go to a TKD dojang, you are going to see a LOT of kicking. If you sign up for lessons, you are going to DO a lot of kicking. No, the forms are not generally chocked full of kicks. However, the kick is emphasized as a tactic for sparring in MOST TKD schools, it is generally incorporated into the various "one-step sparring" modes, and a good portion of basic floor practice is usually devoted to refining one's kicking techniques and combinations. At least that's how I've perceived and experienced TKD to be practiced on this planet. In a typical TKD training environment, I think it is fair to say that the development of kicking is done at the expense of a LOT of other martial material that one could be refining...joint-locking, standing grappling, throwing/takedowns, ground fighting, knees/elbows/headbutts, vital point striking, etc. That is what I mean by the term "emphasize"...the emphasis of kicking over the myriad of other material that one could practice. <<>> You could say anything. You could say "Judo emphasizes throws", and "Escrima emphasizes the stick and knife". In either case, you'd be correct in the general sense. That's not to say this is what these arts are ALL about...but I think it just serves to paint the broad picture of what these arts emphasize, and the context within which they are practiced. Make sense? CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:59:04 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Chung Do Kwan formation Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Chris, Chung Do Kwan was formed in '44. f. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:04:46 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Kung Fu and Kicking Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mark, Your statement about CMA is inaccurate. My first set was a set called Chan Ch'uan. It features prominently a butterfly kick, tornado kick, side kick and crescent kicks. But it's a Northern style. If you were to look at Southern you'd see much fewer kicks. Taijiquan is not based on kicking, yet it does have a couple, and once again that will be dependent on the which family style you practice. In CMA it will simply depend. There is no standard like in TKD or Karate. Your Sifu gives you what he thinks you need. My Sifu for example focuses more on Nei Gung, and the same Sifu focuses more on long range and flowing movements with my wife. It just depends. Hope this helps. f. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:07:15 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] NK (DPRK) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, I doubt that contact with players from the DPRK will be permitted to any significant extent. Remember that the DPRK has deemed a rogue nation and a habitat for terrorists. Further, its not in the interests of the DPRK to allow their athletes contact with us. I just don't see it happening. f. --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:09:49 -0500 From: "Farral, Kim" To: "Dojang " Subject: [The_Dojang] Chambering Kicks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Pil Seung... Traditional TKD kicks have individually distinct chambers...i.e.; front round and side kicks...the NEW TKD style to which Ray refers is geared for Olympic style sparring where there is no difference in the chamber between kicks with the knee forward, as he stated...the purpose being to increase the speed of the kick...when the kicks are thrown the upper body is typically upright and facing the opponent...so chambering is the same but foot position and lower leg motion may differ... However...you knew I was getting to a however...in the mid 80s I was taught that all kicks (with the exception of straight leg kicks like full crescents and rising kicks) come from the knee...the opponent should never know which kick is coming by the knee position...again, this is a sparring technique...but the chambering between the kicks was still different at the execution of the kick from the knee...the upper body twists and lower body pivots for round house and side kicks...where they typically do not in the New TKD sparring style...it is not a new concept, but the modification of the old philosophy to develop a new technique... Btw:...that concept was taught to me in 1985 by Bill Wallace...I use it as a training method for balance... Pil Seung!!! The One and Only "TINK" ************************************ This email and any files transmitted with it are proprietary and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of ITT Industries, Inc. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. ITT Industries accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email. ************************************ --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:15:42 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts 101 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> <> There are kicks in hapkido that are low specific. That is they only work for low kicks and are not found in taekwondo, at least not in any taekwondo dojang that I have seen. I do not know if they are in shinmoo. I have seen many taekwondo dojang that do a LOT of yelling. I would not necessarily call it a kihap though. It comes from up high in the throat. This is not conclusive, as I have seen a few that know a proper kihap. Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:15:44 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Yelling Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I can't speak for the KHF, But at our dojang, we teach new students to kihap during their time as a beginner, then we move to a more silent kihap to continue the process of teaching students how to breathe 'properly' during a technique and to breathe into the 'extension' of the technique. The kihap is there, you just can't hear it. Hapkido is a combat art. In combat, you do not want to disclose you presence to the rest of the enemy. Master West wrote an interesting post on his experience's using hapkido in Vietnam a while back that is worth reading. In the streets, if you do a lot of posturing and yelling, chances are, even if you are simply defending yourself, you may get a free ride in a patrol car as you are attracting a lot more attention to yourself than you should. A proper kihap does not have to be vocalized, but it does take practice. The founder of aikido did not vocalize his ki, but he was still incredibly good at extending it. Ki is extended through the breath (in a loud or quiet kihap) and through the technique. Jere R. Hilland. www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:16:23 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD and Self-defense Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Craig Stovall wrote: "You see there's a generation of practitioners out there inventing yet another style of kicking...it's called the "couldn't knock the skin off of a 3-egg puddin'" style of kicking." I think I'd partially agree with this Craig. There was money to be made in the martial arts, and that meant that dojangs filled up and some people turned their dojangs into social centers rather than sweaty old gyms, and we get the flutter kick as a result. Of course, not all dojangs are like that. Craig also said: "I've also criticized TKD's efficacy in the past, and we probably agree on a lot of the same issues in that regard. Again, the classic points I've stated in the past...too much emphasis on kicking at striking distance, lack of a realistic approach to the clinch/standing grapple, and no groundfighting." Yep. One of my favorite criticisms of TKD players is that they tend to jump away from their attacker to get to kicking distance, and then feel very confident of their skills, ie. "Ha! Now I have you!" Good stuff from tkd is the front kick and the spinning back kick -- very powerful techniques! And as bad as TKD distance control is, it is still better than those HKD schools that don't spar at all. I remember playing with some HKD guys who were much better kickers than I was, but because they had never sparred I could evade them by just moving back a few inches and then move into range and hit them. Fun! But yes, I think HKD is in general much better for self-defense than TKD. Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick 4th dan TKD, 3rd dan HKD --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:31:47 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ATA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Thomas "Nice Guy" Gordon writes, <<>> Wow. So, in other words, one's journey in the arts is ultimately constrained by the amount of money one is willing and able to bring to the table. Work as hard and as long as you please, but the "premium stuff" is only available to those with some cash. I can think of a lot of adjectives to describe such a system, but "egalitarian" would not be one of them. Oh well. Thanks for the info. Craig "And to Think I Coach for Free" Stovall CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:33:35 -0500 From: ABurrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido video review Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net New Hapkido video review at this location: http://www.themartialist.com/0304/hapkido.htm There are also a lot of interesting articles at the martialist site. Check them out! Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 16 Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:28:58 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Martin To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] North_vs_South Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net There are three groups using the name ITF. 1. ITF with NK president www.internationaltaekwon-dofederation.com 2. ITF with Gen. Choi's son as president www.itf-admin.com 3. ITF with Master Tran Quan as preisdent www.tkd-itf.org Each group claims to be the legitmite heir of Gen. Choi. Right now ITF-NK seems a bit confused/tied up with the Dr. Kim/Chang Ung financial dealings. The org. with Gen. Choi's son seems to be plodding along but according to their website many schools have not rejoined so I'm unsure of what is happening. The third group is also plodding along. They are just forming a new org in the US. Gen. Choi introduced TKD to North Korea in the ealy 1980's. (Several Americans traveled with that demo team including Chcuk Sereff.) The North Korean's took to it very quickly and have been a dominate force in world championship competition since then. However, it is hard to judge how much influence they had on the later developement of techniques, etc. The three grandmasters that the Gen. Choi promoted had a bigger impact -- one American and two South Koreans (one Korean living in the UK and one in the US). It appears that only one of these is still with the ITF. I suspect that it would be very hard to draw the North Koreans out. You would have better luck in contacting some of the other groups or other ITF based groups, IMHO. Robert Martin Message: 15 Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 07:37:24 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_North_vs_South_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: "......TKD is a very new name, new since the Korean War. It seems that TKD made its way into NK via the ITF and NK's (close?) relationship with Gen. Choi of the ITF... all this occurring within the last 10 or 15 or ?? years....." I, too, have been very much interested in why one cannot network with various representatives from NK regarding ITF. Do they have some spokesperson or representative? Is there a clearinghouse for inquiries? Some time back I had an address that was posted here and sent a couple of e-mails but heard nothing in return. I would be willing to get involved with drawing these folks into our community if I can just find a venue for doing it. Comments? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest