Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 10:11:04 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #160 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: newbie in the house (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 2. Ideal age for kids to have black belt (ELIE NOUJEIM) 3. sin moo kihaps (michael tomlinson) 4. Lead by example (Charles Richards) 5. Re: Re: ATA (tkd Texan) 6. Re: ATA (J R Hilland) 7. Re: ICTF (Dewitt, Garrett) 8. Re: Re: ICTF (Ray Terry) 9. Re: ATA (Stovall, Craig) 10. Re: Ideal age for kids to have black belt (tkd Texan) 11. RE: Re: ATA (Frank Leonard) 12. RE: Hapkido Yelling (Stovall, Craig) 13. Re: Re: ATA (Thomas Gordon) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 00:54:58 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: newbie in the house Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Dear Dojang listees, I'm married to a man who is half Korean and was born in Seoul. Our son is 6 and is showing an interest in taking some form of martial arts classes. In light of his family heritage, I am most interested in exploring Korean martial arts. I have a lot of questions, though. But to spare you from all those questions just yet, I thought I'd start off with a "hello"! :-) Melanie in Pennsylvania" welcome to the list, melanie. as you've probably noticed, there are a wide variety of students of korean martial arts on this list who would be more than willing to answer your questions. we're blessed with many grandmasters, masters, instructors & students, all of whom should have some great feedback for you. start askin' those questions :) take care, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "ELIE NOUJEIM" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 11:56:32 +0300 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ideal age for kids to have black belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have questions regarding children who are between 8 and 12 years old who take black belt(poom),1st and 2nd at a very young age, do you think * Is it too early for them to get black belt? * Are they mature enough to know what is a black belt? * at 18 he will be master? I am asking these questions because we have in our country a lot of TKD students who are black belts and their ages are between 8 and 10 years, is it good or bad?  and what do you think of being a master(4th dan) at 18? thanks in advance for your answers . best regards gaby    ------------------------------------------------------------------------ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 13:27:34 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] sin moo kihaps Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In Sin Moo there are several sounds you use, they are actually less of a "yell" and more of a mind and adrenal activation....the word given represent the sound you make not the actual words (sounds combined with motion make more speed and power) listening to Doju Nim Ji Han Jae explain them is a lot better then hearing me explain it,,,,,, here they are: Yat..defensive Ate...offensive moddit...low to high hitting motion peh...motion from high to low sheh...sideward motion la-ha-ha...blocking withdrawing their spirit dough...the defensive sound la=high defense do=impact downward..like a throw ahup...striking down Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Get rid of annoying pop-up ads with the new MSN Toolbar – FREE! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 05:39:04 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Lead by example Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net We could all learn a lot from our moderator. I know I have pulled one off the hip and emptied the clip a few times before I fired up the CPU :-) "Sorry Master Miller. I read your kihap vs. hapki post too early this AM and therefore misread it. I shouldn't have popped off like I did... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com" Be Well, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "tkd Texan" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: ATA Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 07:54:36 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Gordon, The 'being on the top' depends on the school. In my school, the leadership program is the 'top'. It's also a very sore subject with me as I enjoyed helping teach the color belts, but I no longer do, as I refused to join the leadership program. As have always stated, one becomes a leader by heart, sweat, and compassion, not by paying a sum of money. Regards, John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 10:07 PM Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: ATA > Mr. Stanley, > > First off, I made a mistake with the link I sent in. At Brandon's ATA, > it appears the "Master Program" is the top. When talking to Master > Clark's salesperson, I was told Leadership was the top. > > Money and martial arts is a sore subject. Probably always will be. > > I don't mind someone offering various courses for different prices. I > ate lunch today for $8. That got me a hamburger plate (pretty good, I > must say). I didn't feel robbed because the menu offered a $22 steak > and they didn't offer it to me since I was a patron. $22 was more than > I wanted to spend (or eat at lunch time). > > Now I realize there is a huge difference between lunch and martial art > training that will change someone's life. But, in the business > viewpoint, a steak costs more than a hamburger. Offering more > classes/courses/programs means more instructors, longer hours, higher > power bills, etc. > > Then we get the argument that an instructor should offer everything they > know for $XX a month. Well, what if a student has no interest in > "everything" the instructor knows. Should they pay the same price as > everyone else who may want every course/program/class? > > I could see a school offering Taekwondo and Hapkido. Both are fairly > different and have their own belt system. I could also understand > someone offering a program that allows a student to come two days a week > and another program that is unlimited. Some people only want to come > twice a week so they would pay less than the person that is there if the > door is open. > > So I can see the argument from both sides. At our school, we have one > program and everyone pays the same price. However, there's a > possibility that we'll offer different programs down the road as our > school gets larger. What we won't do is make people feel like they are > getting "okay" training because mommy & daddy won't put out another > $2000-8000. > > The problem I have with the link I sent in earlier > (http://www.brandonsata.com/Program_Comparison_Chart.htm) is the > "rewards" built into the various programs. For example, you can't be > ranked in your state unless you're in the Leadership Program. What does > being an instructor have to do with competition? That's just a way to > force people into becoming instructors so they can chase the titles. > And as Mr. Dante James said, it basically promotes "babies having > babies" because some of these people are sporting assistant instructor > collars when they're color belts. They'll easily be instructors by > second degree (if not first). > > Also, in ATA, weapons are required for upper belts so a person will be > forced into other programs if they wish to progress. > > Then there is the part we don't see with the extremely high pressure > sales tactics that plague many of the ATA schools in my area. One > mother brought her child to our school because she said she was tired of > leaving her wallet at home when she took her child to class. > > Another lady came in because she was told it was $1800 to go from first > degree to second degree PLUS testing fees and midterms. In addition, > from what I understand, the contract read that she could not work out > anywhere else until she achieved her second degree. > > So there it is in a nutshell. (You should see the long version...) > > Thomas Gordon > > PS. If you love little Johnny, you'll let me upsale you to the > Leadership program for only $7000!! (I've heard as much as $10,000) > Today only...cash...or we can finance at 24% that you'll still be paying > when little Johnny has "little Johnny's" of his own. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stovall, Craig [mailto:CStovall@nucorar.com] > Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 10:32 AM > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ATA > > > Mr. Thomas "Nice Guy" Gordon writes, > > << steps. Some ATA schools offer a generic taekwondo where forms aren't > even learned. Black belt club carries you from white to 1st degree. > Master Club offers weapons and goes up to third degree (maybe > higher...not sure). Leadership offers even more weapons and allows you > to get rated for state championships. Supposedly, it is intended for > those that show an interest in owning a school or teaching martial arts. > What teaching has to do with being ranked in the state is beyond me.>>> > > Wow. So, in other words, one's journey in the arts is ultimately > constrained by the amount of money one is willing and able to bring to > the table. Work as hard and as long as you please, but the "premium > stuff" is only available to those with some cash. I can think of a lot > of adjectives to describe such a system, but "egalitarian" would not be > one of them. Oh well. Thanks for the info. > > Craig "And to Think I Coach for Free" Stovall > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE > > This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information > intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If > this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the > intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, > disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly > prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are > unsure > whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please > immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to > destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you > may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. > Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver > of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may > relate to the sender. _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard > disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 08:29:14 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ATA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I understand your premise, but can't say that I agree with it. First we do not charge much for classes and do not have joining fees, contracts, etc. I also practice that a member of the dojang is a member of the dojang, period. They should not have to pay anything extra. It is up to the student to determine if they come 1 or 10 times a week to class. Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Dewitt, Garrett" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 08:36:17 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ICTF Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Ray Terry wrote: "We would like to take this opportunity to introduce The International Ch'ang-Hon Taekwon Do Federation." The members who run the federation, are supported by our honorary president Grand Master Nam Tae Hi, and our president Grand Master Kong, Young Il." Master Terry, is this Grandmaster Nam Tae Hi the same individual from the Chung Do Kwan lineage who trained with Gen Choi Hong Hi years ago in South Korea? Thank You Garrett DE WITT MARTIAL ARTS --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: ICTF To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 06:49:27 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Master Terry, is this Grandmaster Nam Tae Hi the same individual from the > Chung Do Kwan lineage > who trained with Gen Choi Hong Hi years ago in South Korea? Yes, I believe so. I -think- he is retired and living in the Chicago-land area. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 08:56:40 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ATA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Point well taken, and your analogy does take a LITTLE bit of the bad taste out of my mouth in regards to these types of pricing structures. However, in some sense I guess I'm just old school when it comes to this stuff. By that, I mean that I'm a firm believer that the student doesn't "buy the art", but rather provides a living for the instructor so that they can have time to share their knowledge. That may just be semantics, but it does help me work around some of the cognitive dissonance that always crops up (at least for me) when we start getting into the commercialization of martial arts. These black belt/leader/master club programs don't leave me much mental wiggle room. In the end, maybe it's not even the escalating nature of the programs that bothers me. If they're getting more material, and assuming this stuff is really "life-changing" (cough***boolsheet***cough), then maybe they should be paying more. Value for value...right? I just know that anybody paying $7,000 for training is getting taken for a RIDE...and I take it you feel that way too. There's no way I could sit there and accept that amount of money from ANYBODY...I don't care if the kid's dad is a prominent Ears-Nose-Throat pulling down $400k per year, or if he's a janitor that would have to max out his credit card to pay for the program. Bottom line...I could not sleep at night. But, other people can and I won't judge them. More power to 'em. Craig "Fixed Fee, No Contracts" Stovall CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "tkd Texan" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Ideal age for kids to have black belt Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 09:09:51 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To answer this question, a question must be asked, 'What is a black belt'? Is it being able to perform all the techniques in a curriculum? Is it an attitude change? Is it the ability of winning a fight? Is it paying an association a set amount of money? Is it an internal change within the person? Is it a measurement amount of life experience? So, what is a black belt? John ----- Original Message ----- From: "ELIE NOUJEIM" To: Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 2:56 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] Ideal age for kids to have black belt > I have questions regarding children who are between 8 and 12 years old > who take black belt(poom),1st and 2nd at a very young age, do you think > > * Is it too early for them to get black belt? > > * Are they mature enough to know what is a black belt? > > * at 18 he will be master? > > I am asking these questions because we have in our country a lot of TKD > students who are black belts and their ages are between 8 and 10 years, > is it good or bad? > > and what do you think of being a master(4th dan) at 18? > > thanks in advance for your answers . > > best regards > > gaby > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Frank Leonard" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: ATA Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 11:42:16 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I tried to stay out of this but can resist no longer. I'm familiar w/the black belt club agreement as I have entered into 3 of these. (myself, wife and son). It nets out to around $55 per month, per person and is a 3 year commitment. (No interest charged). For my son, who was 5 at the time, I asked for and was granted a 2 month out clause for him. (In case he lost interest in TKD. He hasn't. The 3 year agreement was retroactive to whenever we started. For example, I started in November month to month at $48 per. When I signed my black belt club agreement in February they backdated it to November and applied all money so far paid. If I move it is transferable to my new location. Finally this DOES NOT guarantee me a black belt. It does however give me a place to do supervised workouts up to 4 times a week(I don't think more would be a problem for them, I couldn't do it) We are taught by either a 5th or 6th degree black belt 99% of the time. If for some reason both of them are absent they have 2nd and 3rd degree helpers that will lead the class. In short I am a satisfied customer. If I belonged to a gym the cost would be similar, as well as the commitment. I'm not sure if anyone could charge much less than that and maintain quality time with their students, a decent place to workout, etc. Frank Leonard Continuing on the journey -----Original Message----- From: Stovall, Craig [mailto:CStovall@nucorar.com] Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 9:57 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ATA <<>> Point well taken, and your analogy does take a LITTLE bit of the bad taste out of my mouth in regards to these types of pricing structures. However, in some sense I guess I'm just old school when it comes to this stuff. By that, I mean that I'm a firm believer that the student doesn't "buy the art", but rather provides a living for the instructor so that they can have time to share their knowledge. That may just be semantics, but it does help me work around some of the cognitive dissonance that always crops up (at least for me) when we start getting into the commercialization of martial arts. These black belt/leader/master club programs don't leave me much mental wiggle room. In the end, maybe it's not even the escalating nature of the programs that bothers me. If they're getting more material, and assuming this stuff is really "life-changing" (cough***boolsheet***cough), then maybe they should be paying more. Value for value...right? I just know that anybody paying $7,000 for training is getting taken for a RIDE...and I take it you feel that way too. There's no way I could sit there and accept that amount of money from ANYBODY...I don't care if the kid's dad is a prominent Ears-Nose-Throat pulling down $400k per year, or if he's a janitor that would have to max out his credit card to pay for the program. Bottom line...I could not sleep at night. But, other people can and I won't judge them. More power to 'em. Craig "Fixed Fee, No Contracts" Stovall CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 10:55:48 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Hapkido Yelling Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<< In the original Hapkido as taught by Gm Ji (sorry, couldn't resist) there is more than one type of kihap, or vocalization, that is employed. I quite frankly do not remember all of them now (5 or 7 as I recall), but the vocalization made varys with the type of attack one is executing.>>> Now that's interesting. What's the theory behind that? Is it still taught that way, or have things changed? CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:25:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: ATA From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Hilland, I think it's great that you don't have joining fees, contracts, and so forth. At our school, we don't do that either. I don't think contracts are such a bad thing but the local ATA school has ruined the area with their long term contracts. People actually call and ask if they have to sign a contract in order to train. Heck, I paid a two year contract to join the gym. Kinda funny, I paid it in advance. Of course it wasn't $7000.... On that thought pattern, the gym offered me weights for $XX (I don't remember how much), aerobics was $XX more, and Tae-Bo was $XX more. I think they offered tanning beds for a minimal fee for memembers....but I don't really recall. All I wanted was weights so that's all I paid for. Now I'm thinkin I shoulda signed up for them there Tae-Bo courses so I coulda learned some REAL self defense. :) In regards to your flat monthly fee, that's great you chose to teach that way. At this time, we do the same thing. I may change that down that road but we'll see. Best regards, Thomas Gordon Florida > I understand your premise, but can't say that I agree with it. First we do > not charge much for classes and do not have joining fees, contracts, etc. > I > also practice that a member of the dojang is a member of the dojang, > period. > They should not have to pay anything extra. It is up to the student to > determine if they come 1 or 10 times a week to class. Jere R. Hilland > www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest