Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:06:05 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #161 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: ATA (Thomas Gordon) 2. Ji's original Hapkido (FirstPe315@aol.com) 3. RE: Ideal age for kids to have black belt (Jason Thomas (Y!)) 4. Power Kicking (FirstPe315@aol.com) 5. RE: Ideal age for kids to have black belt (Master Mark Seidel) 6. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Ideal_Age_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 7. RE: Re: ATA (Thomas Gordon) 8. Re: ATA (Stovall, Craig) 9. Re: RE: Hapkido Yelling (Ray Terry) 10. Re: Martial Arts 101 (jeffrey kiral) 11. Re: (no subject) (Jye nigma) 12. Re: Ideal age for kids to have black belt (Jye nigma) 13. Re: Martial Arts 101 (Ray Terry) 14. Kicks in jinpalhapkido ? (Ray Terry) 15. Kukkiwon certification (Sheree Goldstein) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:55:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: ATA From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Stovall, I always enjoy reading your replies. We seem to think a lot a like. Yes, I think someone charging $7-10K for a program is disgusting and they need to wear a mask when offering these programs. Espically when they sell it to a six year old that will never get what they paid for. Retention in these high pressure schools absolutely sucks (that's my legal term) so they push for contracts and money upfront. And yeah, if calling em as I see em is being judgemental, then so be it. But again, I was in this system for 10 years and owned/operated an ATA school. These programs were the final straw for me along with being told I couldn't test for fourth degree unless I had 1200 people testing a year (assuming six testings a year, that's 200 at each testing). "By that, I mean that I'm a firm believer that the student doesn't 'buy the art', but rather provides a living for the instructor so that they can have time to share their knowledge." Hummm, IMO, yes and no. A student "buys the art" if you charge them anything at all. But I know whatcha mean. It really comes down to the greasy upsell tactics with the baiter to get you in the door like car dealers do. You show up for the $12000 F150 Truck and find out that wheels are extra. Oh, you want a seat to come WITH the truck?!? Best regards, Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 13:23:41 -0500 From: FirstPe315@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Ji's original Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In Choi's original-original Hapkido (sorry, I couldn't resist) there was no vocalization differentiations. Jeff In a message dated 3/31/2004 10:37:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > In the original Hapkido as taught by Gm Ji (sorry, couldn't resist) there > is more than one type of kihap, or vocalization, that is employed. I > quite frankly do not remember all of them now (5 or 7 as I recall), but the > vocalization made varys with the type of attack one is > executing. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Jason Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Ideal age for kids to have black belt Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:32:45 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If I could answer this, I'd know exactly how many licks it takes to the to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop. Although the last count was 3, I think it might be off ;) Jason -----Original Message----- From: tkd Texan [mailto:tkd-texan@comcast.net] Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 9:10 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Ideal age for kids to have black belt To answer this question, a question must be asked, 'What is a black belt'? Is it being able to perform all the techniques in a curriculum? Is it an attitude change? Is it the ability of winning a fight? Is it paying an association a set amount of money? Is it an internal change within the person? Is it a measurement amount of life experience? So, what is a black belt? John ----- Original Message ----- From: "ELIE NOUJEIM" To: Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 2:56 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] Ideal age for kids to have black belt > I have questions regarding children who are between 8 and 12 years old > who take black belt(poom),1st and 2nd at a very young age, do you think > > * Is it too early for them to get black belt? > > * Are they mature enough to know what is a black belt? > > * at 18 he will be master? > > I am asking these questions because we have in our country a lot of TKD > students who are black belts and their ages are between 8 and 10 years, > is it good or bad? > > and what do you think of being a master(4th dan) at 18? > > thanks in advance for your answers . > > best regards > > gaby > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 13:54:17 -0500 From: FirstPe315@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Power Kicking Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Of course, I wouldn't advise any of my 5'3" females in class to try this with the larger guys in my class no matter how hard they could kick. I would just call that stupid, no judgement of their kicking strength. Even if you can kick hard, physics and momentum alone will probably get you in trouble. Thus, why not just step out of the way...sounds simple! Love that Hapkido! Jeff In a message dated 3/31/2004 10:37:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > if you can't stop the person with the shield, > you've got no business trying to throw that kick in a real > fight. They will > either bowl you over, or easily capture the leg. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Master Mark Seidel" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Ideal age for kids to have black belt Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 14:12:12 -0500 Organization: The Midtown Academy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Personally, I feel it is an economic decision made by schools to keep cash generated and to keep students. An 18 year old Master is like having an 18 year old professor in college maybe that has mastered some technical skills but could not possibly master the wisdom of age (life). Master Mark Seidel Martial Arts /PE Program The Midtown Academy http://www.midtownacademy.org -----Original Message----- From: ELIE NOUJEIM [mailto:noujeimelie@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 3:57 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Ideal age for kids to have black belt I have questions regarding children who are between 8 and 12 years old who take black belt(poom),1st and 2nd at a very young age, do you think * Is it too early for them to get black belt? * Are they mature enough to know what is a black belt? * at 18 he will be master? I am asking these questions because we have in our country a lot of TKD students who are black belts and their ages are between 8 and 10 years, is it good or bad? and what do you think of being a master(4th dan) at 18? thanks in advance for your answers . best regards gaby ------------------------------------------------------------------------ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 13:32:32 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Ideal_Age_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Gaby: "....I have questions regarding children who are between 8 and 12 years old who take black belt(poom),1st and 2nd at a very young age, do you think * Is it too early for them to get black belt?....." Without meaning offense to members of the Christian persuasion, I often consider receiving a Black belt as something akin to an adult receiving a Christian rite such as Baptism, Confirmation, Marriage or Ordination. It is a life changing event in which a person agrees to accept some pretty weighty responsibilities. I know for a great many people it may not be much more than a different colored belt and some status in the school. Thats fine for them, and if the kids want a special hierarchy of promotion lets make it for them. But BB is taken already and carries its own baggage. Currently the Gay population has cause people to rethink what "marriage" means, and I imagine that will probably generalize to all the benefits associated WITH marriage. As much as junior may have busted his butt to master the basics I still think that BB should be reserved to an adult population just like the concept of "marriage" is reserved to hetero-sexual couples. Gays can bond if they want to but they will need to invent their own word for whatever it is they are doing. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: ATA Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 14:03:45 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Leonard, What got all of this started was the comment about ATA having higher standards than other systems. As a person that was on the inside, I can say without a doubt that it's absolutely not accurate on so many fronts. I can't count the times I heard some ATA official tell the little indoctrinated sheep that, "We (being ATA) ARE the professionals." I've been told by some excellent instructors they were advised to move to a larger city so they'll have enough students to test for upper ranks. It's all about the money. Perhaps a bad apple? If so, the "bad apple" is the highest ranked ATA black belt. "In short I am a satisfied customer. If I belonged to a gym the cost would be similar, as well as the commitment." As a student, in the grand scheme of things, if you're happy, that's all that matters. I pay my rent the best way I can and with clear coconscious. That's fantastic if you're happy and your instructor is making the overhead. I was quoted $3000 for Black Belt Club and you are paying about $2000 per person. Over a three year period, that's likely a good deal so long as your family keeps training and the instructor keeps teaching. Sounds like you have some good instructors. In regards to the transferable comment, the contract is not transferable in many cases. We didn't have black belt club at my school. Nor did we have it at the school where I started or my last instructor's school. Best of fortune to you and your family. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 14:05:20 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ATA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Leonard writes, <<< I tried to stay out of this but can resist no longer. I'm familiar w/the black belt club agreement as I have entered into 3 of these. (myself, wife and son). It nets out to around $55 per month, per person and is a 3 year commitment. (No interest charged). For my son, who was 5 at the time, I asked for and was granted a 2 month out clause for him. (In case he lost interest in TKD. He hasn't.>>> First off, I'm glad you are satisfied with the service that you're getting. Second off, this is probably the last thing I'll post on this subject since Ray is probably getting ready to tell us to "move along". Here's the problem I have with these types of programs. 1. Assuming that these programs are 3 year commitments...then the $3k program works out to $83/month, the $5k is $139/month, and the $7k is $194/month. I can jive with the $83 since I used to pay around that much for training. The last two are highway robbery. All, just MHO. 2. If the services are so good...then why the contract? For something so good that they can charge someone $7k with a straight face, you'd think people would be lined up to get in the door and would be back month after month. Riiiiiggghhhht!!! Because they know that people will drop out, or not come as often as they should. This is how they can service 300 people, and only pay for floor space and instructors to accommodate 100. It's the health club model applied to martial arts. Works great for the people that are really committed and will follow through, but it's the "MIA after 6 months" crew that pays the bills. Which leads into point number three. 3. The up-front money is not to solidify your commitment...it's to bolster the bottom line. Cash flow is king, and the time-value of money says that a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow. Paying them a lump sum up front means that your hard-earned money is now working for someone else. Yes, they could bill you every month, but that would cost them money in terms of billing expense. More importantly...the $7k that was just laid out is worth $8,300 at the end of three years at a measly 6% APR. Long-term historical return on the stock market is in the neighborhood of 12%. They have basically forced the most advantageous (to them) payment terms upon the student (cash in advance, baby), and you suffer the opportunity cost of not having your money available to work for you. But then again, you are probably well aware of this, and I'm thinking/worrying about this WAY too hard. If people are satisfied with the product then that's all that matters. And, I certainly don't want to imply that you or anybody else is stupid for buying one of these programs. I think that the $3k Black Belt programs are reasonably priced, and probably serve the student well as long as they aren't getting a watered down, "no frills" training experience. These $7k deals are just ridiculous...especially when all you're basically talking about is access to double stick training, joint-locking, watered down Gracie Jiu-jitsu, and an "administrative Christening". I just don't like the way these things are structured and priced (especially priced) because their only utility is to maximize school profits. Just my honest opinion...nothing more. Caveat emptor. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Hapkido Yelling To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:19:27 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > <<< In the original Hapkido as taught by Gm Ji (sorry, couldn't resist) > there is more than one type of kihap, or vocalization, that is employed. I > quite frankly do not remember all of them now (5 or 7 as I recall), but the > vocalization made varys with the type of attack one is executing.>>> > > Now that's interesting. What's the theory behind that? Is it still taught > that way, or have things changed? Yes, it is still taught that way. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "jeffrey kiral" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts 101 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 16:35:56 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well, upon ivestigation into the matter...take a look at Master Bong Soo Han's book entitled "Hapkido". This was published in 1974 and it clearly shows knee forward chambered kicks. So again I ask, when were these "new" TKD kicks incorporated into Hapkido? Unless I am wrong, didn't Master Han learn from Master Ji? Is it true that Hapkido as originally taught by GM Choi did not put alot of emphasis on kicking, especially at the beginning of the art? I have seen and read so much on the subject recently and I am curious as to your take on the subject... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Terry" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 7:06 AM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts 101 > > when was this Kukki-TKD developed? my Master learned from his Master the > > same way...and I am pretty sure that it was pre-1970-ish HKD from Korea but > > I am not entirely sure of the exact date. > > Sounds like an apocryphal story, no more. > > To see the original kicks of HKD watch Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu and also > Sin Moo Hapkido. > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 13:33:16 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] (no subject) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Depending on your system of Kung Fu, I think the differences will be easy to do, as long as you can empty your cup. It's funny though, because what we do becomes part of us. I can remember my kung fu training vs TKD, little things such as how to put your foot down after a kick took the longest to get used to. In TKD you kick and put that sucker right back down. In my shaolin training, you kick, and slide the foot back into position, you never drop it back down....not sure if that makes sense, but there will be huge differences and then little itty bitty ones. Jye Dionne Swart wrote: Good Day all I have been trained in Kung Fu, Kickboxing and Kyokushinkai Karate. In the kickboxing and karate I have a 4th dan. In the kung fu I have only been practising for 5 years. I am interested in changing over to TKD. Are there many big changes or would the change be a relativly easy one. I understand that I cannot start at black. I don't mind starting at white belt and working my way up. Just some advice would be a great help. Also does anyone know of any good TKD places in Durban South Africa Thanks in Advance Dionne Swart _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 13:46:54 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Ideal age for kids to have black belt To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ELIE NOUJEIM wrote: * Is it too early for them to get black belt? Yep....but not an "honorary black belt" or a junior black belt >* Are they mature enough to know what is a black belt? I don't think even adults understand what a black belt is. >* at 18 he will be master? Not at all. At a higher level, training should be self discovery, leading to enlightenment. Very little to do with the physical. >I am asking these questions because we have in our country a lot of TKD students who are black belts and their ages are between 8 and 10 years, is it good or bad? I think at that age, they should be honorary black belts, or junior black belts. >and what do you think of being a master(4th dan) at 18? I think that school needs to rethink the structure of their classes. thanks in advance for your answers . best regards gaby ------------------------------------------------------------------------ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts 101 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 14:34:58 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Well, upon ivestigation into the matter...take a look at Master Bong Soo > Han's book entitled "Hapkido". This was published in 1974 and it clearly > shows knee forward chambered kicks. So again I ask, when were these "new" > TKD kicks incorporated into Hapkido? Unless I am wrong, didn't Master Han > learn from Master Ji? Is it true that Hapkido as originally taught by GM > Choi did not put alot of emphasis on kicking, especially at the beginning of > the art? I have seen and read so much on the subject recently and I am > curious as to your take on the subject... Interesting point about Gm Han. He is clearly interested in kicking, probably always has been. Are his side, round, hook, axe, etc. kicks all coming from that knee forward position? What about his low kicks? Like the instep to the shin kick or the hook kick to the thigh or the grand circular blade kick to the shins of two opponents standing side-by-side? Those would not seem to not work well from that knee high and forward chamber position. ??? It may all come down to a chicken vs. egg question. Who came up with it and when did the first knee forward postion come into being? Gm Han? Bill Wallace? The JiDo Kwan coaches that made so many early innovations to sport TKD (early = 1960s)? ??? I would -suspect- the latter and then it was copied many others. Regarding where Gm Han learned, yes he learned both from Gm Choi and Gm Ji. Gm Ji was no doubt far more interested in kicking than was Gm Choi. Ywara has few kicks, nothing like SinMoo or Sung Moo Kwan or Gm Han's IHF HKD. As a sidebar, I mentioned the 25 basic kicks of SinMoo (and Sung Moo Kwan?) HKD. That does not include the many non-basic kicks, e.g. the low roundhouse, back spin, low back spin, jumping, double kicks, etc. The advanced kicks are the ones that Gm Han has clearly excelled at during his long career. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 15:21:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Kicks in jinpalhapkido ? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ... There are also historic pictures of the early days of > hapkido in the Blue House and Viet Nam. > http://www.jinpalhapkido.com/gallery.html Brian, On the kick and knee chamber thread... how does JinPalHapkido chamber their kicks? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 21:44:27 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Sheree Goldstein Subject: [The_Dojang] Kukkiwon certification Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ok, oh great and illustrious minds of Korean MA... I need your advice. I earned my first dan on Feb. 6th (after my school burned down on Feb. 2nd). In the chaos of reconsturction, my Kukkiwon papers did not get sent in. When I asked about them today, my Master Instructor said that due to the financial mismanagement scandal at the USTU, we had no way of sending the papers through to the Kukkiwon. He said that our organization was going to stop promising Kukkiwon certification, would just give organizational certification, and I told him that that didn't work for me. I respectfully explained that who knows if they might ever move, or whatever. I think he understood, and said he'd talk to the president of the organization. Is there a way to get certification (through my school, of course) other than through the USTU? Thanks for the help, Sheree --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest