Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 03:01:50 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #162 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Kukkiwon certification (Ray Terry) 2. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Hapkido_kicking?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 3. Programs (Charles Richards) 4. GM Bong Soo Han (J.R. West) 5. Poome and Dan again (Charles Richards) 6. Chamber the kicks (Rudy Timmerman) 7. Re: Chamber the kicks (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kukkiwon certification To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 18:53:36 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > He said that our organization was going to stop promising Kukkiwon > certification, would just give organizational certification, and I told him > that that didn't work for me. > I respectfully explained that who knows if they might ever move, or > whatever. I think he understood, and said he'd talk to the president of > the organization. > > Is there a way to get certification (through my school, of course) other > than through the USTU? Yes. Your instructor could go straight to the Kukkiwon. Many instructors did that prior to the USTU's problems. I suspect more will be doing that given the recent problems, but I also suspect things will eventually get cleared up at the USTU. Until then your instructor could contact the Kukkiwon about setting up an account and doing Dan certs direct via them. Same price. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 21:12:59 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Hapkido_kicking?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jeffrey: ".....Unless I am wrong, didn't Master Han learn from Master Ji? Is it true that Hapkido as originally taught by GM Choi did not put alot of emphasis on kicking, especially at the beginning of the art? I have seen and read so much on the subject recently and I am curious as to your take on the subject..." I think it is important to remember that GM Ji was only one of a few people who introduced and polished kicking material. GM Moo-Woong Kim was the other person who was instrumental and his goals for the utilization of kicking were quite a bit different (See Dr Kimm). By extension, Joo Bang Lee and In Hyuk Suh have modified kicking in a bit different direction than say GM Kwang Sik Myung or the folks in Moo Sool Kwan Hapkido. I think it would be a shame to allowing the kicking material in Early Choi Hapkido to fall by the wayside, even if someone as pretigious and influential as GM Hyun Su Lim eschews much use of it. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Charles Richards" To: Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 23:23:36 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Programs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear List, I appreciate what Master Hilland posted (and that's what I do now), but a quality BB club IMHO establishes a special class for your die-hards and a lower cost per class. Anybody who pays rent knows (unless they close their doors) that it takes $xx per jae ja on the floor to pay all the expense. I start at $10/class which is what quality, dependable baby sitters charge in my area. Yoga and Tai Chi go for around $15 for a drop in session and $10 to $12 for ongoing classes, so at twice per week average requirement, my monthly tuition is $79, If I had a BB Club it would include say a once a month class/mini clinic AND up to 4 classes per week for say $99/month or as low as $8.25 per class. This is certainly the kind of discount I would want to give to my die-hards, but anything less would be devaluing my time away from familly and might generate more expenses than revenue....FWIW I do leadership team a little different. Everybody 3rd Dan and below pays tuition. Everybody who teaches get's paid (something). That forces me/the dojang to have two relationships with that person one as a student/client, obligating me to the same client service as any other paying member, i.e. covering their training on a regular basis. Two as an employee, they are expected to adhere to the dojang/company standards when they are working...hope that helps. Yours in jung do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "J.R. West" To: Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 22:50:20 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] GM Bong Soo Han Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I first met Master Bong Soo Han in Nah Trang, VietNam in 1966 when I was a red belt, and all his kicking motions started with his knee up and forward then, and he still does it that way now......It's also the way I was taught from day one..... Master Han will be 73 in August and still has some of the nicest kicks I have ever seen....J. R. West.... www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Charles Richards" To: Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 23:46:01 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Poome and Dan again Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Orig Post "I have questions regarding children who are between 8 and 12 years old > who take black belt(poom),1st and 2nd at a very young age, do you think > > * Is it too early for them to get black belt? > > * Are they mature enough to know what is a black belt? > > * at 18 he will be master? > > I am asking these questions because we have in our country a lot of TKD > students who are black belts and their ages are between 8 and 10 years, > is it good or bad?" I think if your 4 year student hasn;t learned enough of your system to be a first poome you need to look seriously at 1. how old you start folks 2. equilizing your curricula 3. how effective you are as a teacher I have promoted 10 year olds to 1st Poome/Dan but I'm not sure I would promote an 8 or 9 year old to Dan level especially with the TKD style 1 year min. to 2nd Dan. Since I am no longer taking 6- the earliest you could earn a 1st Poome from me is 10.5 and I've seen some dedicated students that are ready for poome rank at 10-12. I have a minimum age of 12 for 2nd Poome and 15 for 3rd Poome There is also some curricula that I edit out of the "youth" program so a student would need to learn adult curricula to make adult Dan. Technically I could produce a 19 year old 4th Dan. I kinda agree with the WTF on Poome and how AAU does coaches/judges, and exceptional 15 year old with several years of experience can handle some adult dan responsibilities (teaching, judging, grading exams). Do I think a 18/19 year old should be the chief examiner on a blackbelt test. No. Do I think and 18 year old can earn a 4th Dan, Yes. Do I agree with the old school karate method of promoting youth to 1st gup and hanging around until 16th birthday to earn 1st Dan, No. I think the Poome is a good compramise. FWIW, Chong "Charlie" Lee was my first Sabum Nim at age 19 he was 4th Dan and his assistant was 3rd Dan. Before their college graduation they received their 5th and 4th Dans from Rhee, Jhoon Goo Kwan Jang Nim. Charlie went on to graduate from VA TECH in pre law with Honors (while holding down the top rating as a NASKA forms competitor in 1986 and 1987) and from American U in D.C. with honors and is/was a lawyer, dojang owner, and the commissioner of NASKA as a 6th Dan. So was he a Master Instructor at 19? You betcha, and that's what GM Jhoon Rhee thought. I believe Charlie started around age 4. Based on his tournament record (which he achieved while maintaining honor roll grades) he was later inducted into the BB Mag Hall of Fame... So Master Thomas, there are 4,675 licks to the center of a tootsie pop . Cheers, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 00:57:56 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Chamber the kicks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray writes: > It may all come down to a chicken vs. egg question. Who came up with > it and when did the first knee forward postion come into being? Gm > Han? > Bill Wallace? The JiDo Kwan coaches that made so many early > innovations > to sport TKD (early = 1960s)? ??? I would -suspect- the latter and > then > it was copied many others. Hello Ray: I have done the knee forward chamber for many kicks since I began training with Master Pak in the sixties, so we can safely assume that Bill did not invent it:). Oddly enough, I just had a short discussion about this type of chamber at the Austin seminar, where I related the same kicking chamber principle to doing techniques. The knee forward chamber, IMHO, seems to support the Yu Won Wha principle we use in performing techniques. Most Instructors, when they break down a side kick to smaller segments for teaching purposes, chamber the kick with the base foot already pivoted and the knee high but not forward. I pointed out to the Austin group that this chamber breakdown practice would lead to missing the boat about having the leg extension come at the same time as the foot pivot and hip rotation. IMHO, doing it the other way would be akin to having spent the energy derived from the pivot and hip torque before driving the kick home. Such a delivery would negate the power derived from the rear leg position, which would make it more like the forward position as used in the jab v/s the cross. This could possibly have a negative impact on power that could be generated, as you learn what you practice. I pointed out a similar "waste of motion" to the seminar group in their delivery of some of our KSB techniques, and I used the side kick breakdown and chamber as an example to show that the chamber, pivot, twist, and the extension of the leg should not be separated. Most people there recognized what I meant right away (even if I can't seem to explain it better). The bonus in kicking with the knee forward chamber is not telegraphing the intended kick, as at the moment of optimal chamber you can make various kicking choices. I use this simple "formula" for pointing out the generation of power: "delivery of the technique must come from the largest joint to the smallest joint, in order, without interruption." Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Chamber the kicks To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 22:37:32 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I have done the knee forward chamber for many kicks since I began > training with Master Pak in the sixties, so we can safely assume that > Bill did not invent it:). Oddly enough, I just had a short discussion > about this type of chamber at the Austin seminar, where I related the > same kicking chamber principle to doing techniques. The knee forward > chamber, IMHO, seems to support the Yu Won Wha principle we use in > performing techniques. > > Most Instructors, when they break down a side kick to smaller segments > for teaching purposes, chamber the kick with the base foot already > pivoted and the knee high but not forward. fwiw.... I've personally experienced at least three different chambers on the side kick as -THE- way to do a side kick. When I first started we learned to chamber the knee high, but oriented perpendicular to the target. Then later in TKD we learned to chamber the knee high but pointed at the target. Later under Gm Ji a high side kick (kick #16) we learned is done with no knee chamber, and with a supporting hand down on the floor. Seems that one diff is that most of the sport TKD kicks can start from this knee forward chamber and work very well. However many of HKD's kicks could not (easily?) be done this way, at least not that I can see...??? e.g. the low crescent kicks, aka "toes cutting", (inside-out and outside-in) to the shin or the reverse circular "toes cutting" kick to the shin of an opponent behind you, or even basic kick #1 which is a sweeping motion kick to the shin. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest