Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 09:02:05 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #166 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Stuff and all that (Kip McCormick) 2. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Hapkido_Kicks?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 3. differences between old kwans... (Damian Jones) 4. Young Masters (Charles Richards) 5. Wading into kicks (Charles Richards) 6. Re: Blackbelt (Klaas Barends) 7. ITF GrandMasters (was North_vs_South) (Dave Steffen) 8. Hapkido Kicks (Ray Terry) 9. Re: SF Headgear (ABurrese@aol.com) 10. Father of Green Berets dies (ABurrese@aol.com) 11. Ji's Kicking (michael tomlinson) 12. Re: Student Types... (J Thomas Howard) 13. Learning to fight (MIND and BODY FITNESS LLC) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Kip McCormick" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Stuff and all that Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 01:37:54 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Allen wrote: "As far as belts, No one wears a black belt until 16 years old. That is the way it is in Korea, it is a Korean art. Following Suit! ^_^" Hi sir, I live and train here in Korea, and you're right with respect to the WTF taekwondo schools over here that I've seen (more than 20 schools, at least...probably more) and kids not wearing adult blackbelts. However, I've seen International Hapkido Federation and Korea Hapkido Federation "under 16" black belts wearing adult black belts. For example, my son and oldest daughter wear an adult black belt but are "poom ranked" on their Korea Hapkido Federation certificates (he's 13, she's 11). They train here in Korea under a Korean master. FYI. Kip McCormick USKMAF Seoul, Korea >From: "Master Allen" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Stuff and all that >Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 16:52:07 -0500 > >Absolutely JRW, > >I with you all the way on that. My wife enjoys giving a little wall to wall >counseling herself. Ego will ruin a man. > >As far as belts, No one wears a black belt until 16 years old. That is the >way >it is in Korea, it is a Korean art. Following Suit! ^_^ > >Grandmaster Jang Young-Shil (student of Choi Young-Sool and friend of Han >Bong-Soo) will be at our US HQ on April 19 ~23. If anyone is interested in >meeting him or attending the seminar, drop us a line via the websites. > >Master Jeff Allen >Chief Instructor >President-American Headquarters >www.hapkiyoosool.com >www.intlhapkido.com >International Hapkido Federation > ----- Original Message ----- > From: J.R. West > To: Dojang Digest > Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 4:05 PM > Subject: [The_Dojang] Stuff and all that > > > Sharon: > Thanx for the look into the running of a dojang.....I once heard >someone > say that any crazy person that did NOT come into a martial arts school >was > either dead or in jail. > > I would, however, like to add one other goober to your group. > > I've got a plan-man: > This guy has walked through the technique your teaching about twice >when > he figures out a way to counter it and when you look over towards him, >he >and > his poor partner are off headed for left field with their >counter-training. > The way I have handled this is to say, "OK, let's test your theory" and >then > do a totally different technique and just beat him into the >floor....Even >the > slowest brain-dead fool will figure out that any technique can be >countered >if > you know what's coming. Someone once said that "everyone has a >plan......... > until they get hit"...Amen! > > My answer to all the other ones was to let Renee have a minute or two >with > them....generally that was enough to either break them of their >nonsensical > behavior or run them off after a few quick, painful trips to the mat. >Either > one was OK with me.....The first time Dexter Mangum walked into my >school, >she > used him in white belt class to show what the normal response was to >feeling >a > Hapkido technique for the first time (those of you that know him, know >that > Dex is an absolute "MONSTER in a dobok"). He came back, but three of >his > friends did NOT...he is approaching 5th dan as we speak. > > As far as poom belts are concerned...The way I do it, is all poom >belts, > regardless of level are outranked by the lowest ranking adult > blackbelt....Third pooms (4 years as a poom) may petition me in writing >to >be > advanced at 16 to adult 2nd dan.....in 37 years of teaching, 3 have made >it. > All poom ranks expire at their 16th birthday. I have one student that >earned > her poom belt at about 12 or 13....took a break till she was 18, started >over > and worked all the way back to adult blackbelt. She is featured on a >clip >on > our website under the title of "That guy who cried"........ > > PS: I will be in MD on the 17th of April...if anyone would like to come >and > visit, let me know and I'll put you in touch with my host..... > > J. R. West www.hapkido.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.nett> > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojangtsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang> >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _________________________________________________________________ Free up your inbox with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Multiple plans available. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 04:32:46 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Hapkido_Kicks?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Howard: "......would you be able to provide more detail about what you are referring to with respect to the kicking techniques in master choi's original art?....." I think this is one of those questions for which you will get as many answers as you get responses, but I will do what I can and try not to use a lot of bandwidth. 1.) We don't really know WHAT it was that Choi learned or taught. He didn't write anything down and there is no documentation to support the oral traditions about him. Different teachers validate what they teach now by saying its what Choi taught them, but there is a wide disparity in technique and execution. Maybe Choi taught different things to different people, and maybe different people organized different curriculum and then attributed their product to Choi as a way of validating it. Without documentation its hard to say. 2.) Chois' traditions seem to break into two general groupings. The first group runs from about 1947 to about 1970 and the second grouping from about 1970 to his death. As far as kicking in the first group, I see two basic groups or approaches. The first group characterized by GM Ji seems to utilize kicking as adjunctive to the grappling material. By this I mean that kicks are used preparatory to using a throw, choke, lock or pin. Some of Ji's students like GM Han have raised the kicking a bit farther such that it becomes a weapon system in its own right. This is the other side of kicking advocated by Moo-woong Kim in which the kick is intended so compliment grappling but as destructive weapon of itself. By extension the Kuk Sool and Hwa Rang people also pursue this view. 3.) Talking with folks on the E-BUDO Net regarding DRAJJ I have heard consistently that kicking, when it is used, is more pre-emptive (after the fashion of GM Ji philosophically) and many times is practiced only to allow students enough facility so that partners can train in counter-kick techniques. 4.) Finally, in Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido, which I train in, despite GM Myungs training under GM Ji, our approach is to use the kick to inflict damage in and of itself. In this way a shin kick, for example, might do well to stun a partner allowing for the use of a choke or throw. However, the same kick is destructive in its own right and we train in this manner. I hope this helps. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Damian Jones" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] differences between old kwans... Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 11:12:23 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray Terry wrote; "Most kwans seemed to focus one signature technique/kick and was their primary sparring technique. Thus you could frequently tell what kwan someone was from based on their favorite/best technique." Does anybody know what the signature techniques for the different kwans are/were? Thanks Damian _________________________________________________________________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 03:39:49 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Young Masters Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Mark Seidel posts "I once had a 25 year old Master that had very little life experience, and an inability to interject philosophy with his training, later I moved on to a Master that was a lot older and had the ability to explain the philosophies of the art, Zen and KI at high levels. Grandmaster Jhoon Rhee said that "the only difference between street fighting and Martial Arts was the philosophy, without philosophy Martial Arts could become very bad, with philosophy it becomes very good". Anyone that is studying Martial Arts just for the technical side could fare far better joining Special Forces, Navy Seals or Ranger school. In my opinion teaching Martial Arts without the philosophy is a shame and a crime." MC reply I think the point here is it would take an exceptional individual to be a kodanja at 18-25. Chong "Charlie" Lee had been a student of Rhee, Jhoon Goo for ALL OF HIS FORMATIVE YEARS by the time we were blessed to have him as sabom nim. I am still quoting philosophy and concepts he taught us from his instructor Rhee, Jhoon Goo. He led an on campus club of 75 to 125 students in any given semester. He was an undergraduate student at the time. Somehow he managed to give us a fair does of PT that would leave the macho Seals and Ranger type gasping for air in a puddle of sweat :-) How could I forget Master West's own Master Instructor Tavod T. (sorry I'm afraid I'm gonna mispell his last name). As he is just in residency now (for MD) I'd say he was 25 or younger when I took his session in Jackson. Obviously he is an exceptional individual if he has a 4th Dan as a direct student of Master West. And I will never forget WTSDA Regional Director and 5th Dan Greg Engle at 31 was the most organized leader I have ever met. I believe he was Shin, Jae Chul's youngest Master and certainly youngest 5th Dan. May he rest in peace. Might for Right! Charles Richards JRI 2nd Gup USKMAF 4th Dan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 04:17:03 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Wading into kicks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rudy Sa Ja Nim writes, Hello Charles et al: I have seen Bill a number of times in contact fights, and he is/was good... no doubt; however, for most of us it does not do well to "hide" the other half of our arsenal behind us. I also gather that some folks responding to this thread have the knee up and stop there. I believe that anytime you stop an action that has gathered kinetic energy and start again after a brief pause causes loss of power. It would violate the "from the largest to the smallest in order without interruption" formula that seems to be the basis of generating power for many arts. The hip, in many arts, is the main joint from where the action starts, but I can't see how you can "point" it at any target as you can with the knee. In any case, the pointing up or lifting of the knee is just part of the entire kicking motion, and it should never pause unless you want your strike to be a jab rather than a power shot. My 2 Canadian pennies (and they are worth nothing as well:). ============================================== I agree the other half of the arsenal is hidden in this posture, so to use only this stance at an advanced level, one must develop the spin back kick, which is actually easier because it now takes only a 1/4 turn. And the reverse punch of Steve "Nasty" Anderson. Like Walace he had mastered one technique to a level no one else could deal with. I agree that the way we teach Cho Bo Ja chamber-kick-rechamber-step down at some point has to be only teaching and they must evolve to kick-rechamber/kick again/step down through the rechamber position or they will learn the hard way what a stop hit or rythym disruption is. I am going over Dr. Ted Gambordella's CD and find his approach to a "power sidekick" interesting. Essentially you aim the sole of the foot half extended at the target and agressively rotate the hip towards the target. Tommy Lee also teaches it this way on a Napma tape, but with a little more defined fold, but not pulled towards the opposite shoulder. He says it's more powerful. When my ankle heels so I can pivot properly I will research this. It and the Kickboxing type low round kick sure meets my JKD Theory filter for directness and "chamber-less". Comments from the list? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 22:36:53 +0800 From: Klaas Barends To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Blackbelt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > As far as belts, No one wears a black belt until 16 years old. That is the way > it is in Korea, it is a Korean art. Following Suit! ^_^ Don't know which Korea you have been to lately, but my experience is TOTALLY different. Like I said before, Korea is the country where they invented McDojang (tm). -- mvg. Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Dave Steffen Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 07:27:28 -0700 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] ITF GrandMasters (was North_vs_South) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: Robert Martin > Subject: [The_Dojang] North_vs_South > > There are three groups using the name ITF. > > 1. ITF with NK president > www.internationaltaekwon-dofederation.com > 2. ITF with Gen. Choi's son as president > www.itf-admin.com > 3. ITF with Master Tran Quan as preisdent > www.tkd-itf.org I think of these as "North Korea", "Canada", and "Vienna" respectively. [...] > Gen. Choi introduced TKD to North Korea in the ealy > 1980's. (Several Americans traveled with that demo team including > Chcuk Sereff.) The North Korean's took to it very quickly and have > been a dominate force in world championship competition since > then. However, it is hard to judge how much influence they had on > the later developement of techniques, etc. The three grandmasters > that the Gen. Choi promoted had a bigger impact -- one American and > two South Koreans (one Korean living in the UK and one in the > US). It appears that only one of these is still with the ITF. Two questions: in what ways do you see GMs Rhee, Hwang, and Sereff as having influenced technique and so forth? Do you have any specific examples? I'm very curious about this. GM Hwang certainly had a distinctive style. Secondly, I'm curious about that last statement. Last I heard, GM Sereff was with the Tran Quan ITF in some fashion; and also last I heard, both GM Rhee and Hwang were with the North Korean / Chang Ung ITF (although GM Hwang's letter, posted here by Master Terry a week or two back, might indicate a coming change). In other words: AFAIK, all three GMs are with the ITF, in one form or another. Is this not the case? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr Dave Steffen, Ph.D. Wave after wave will flow with the tide Raytheon IIS And bury the world as it does Tide after tide will flow and recede tkd-physics@comcast.net Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 06:37:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Kicks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > 2.) Chois' traditions seem to break into two general groupings. The first > group runs from about 1947 to about 1970 and the second grouping from > about 1970 to his death. As far as kicking in the first group, I see two > basic groups or approaches. The first group characterized by GM Ji seems > to utilize kicking as adjunctive to the grappling material. By this I > mean that kicks are used preparatory to using a throw, choke, lock or > pin. Some of Ji's students like GM Han have raised the kicking a bit > farther such that it becomes a weapon system in its own right. This is > the other side of kicking advocated by Moo-woong Kim in which the kick is > intended so compliment grappling but as destructive weapon of itself. By > extension the Kuk Sool and Hwa Rang people also pursue this view. I would disagree a bit and say tht Gm Ji's kicks are used both to enter into grappling range and also as 'finishing' techniques. e.g. kick #17, back (horse) kick to the chest or head. Your hands are on the ground and you are facing away from the opponent. Not much of an entry into grappling range. What is unique with his kicks when compared to, say, the kicks shown on the KHF videotapes, is how much like taekkyon they seem. Arcing, sweeping, using the point of the toes and sides of the foot more than the ball of the foot. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 10:13:42 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: SF Headgear Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>I found it odd that not a single one of them noticed that said >>Col.s 5th GP beret device was that of an enlisted man...........help me! I think they fixed that in the second and third movies. :-) For those that don't know what J.R. was talking about, the flash on the front of the beret for an SF officer will have the rank insignia, while an enlisted person's flash will have the De Oppresso Liber crest. With the 82nd Airborne, it was the same for officers, and then enlisted would have our unit crest on the flash. And yes, military training focuses on using weapons, and very little hand to hand. Many of us that wanted extra hand-to-hand or martial art skills went to civillian schools off post. In Korea, they did have some on post teaching too. But we spent much more time training with the tools of our trade, weapons, than hand-to-hand.... Yours in Training, Alain --__--__-- Message: 10 From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 10:15:19 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Father of Green Berets dies Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net While this is not Korean MA, the recent posts about Special Forces made me think some on this list might want to hear this. I just recieved the entire article on another list. - Alain Retired Army Col. Aaron Bank, who led a number of daring missions during World War II but was best known for his postwar role in organizing and serving as the first commander of the Army's elite Special Forces, has died. He was 101. Bank, who was known as "the father of the Green Berets," died Thursday of natural causes at his home in an assisted-living facility in Dana Point, Calif., said his son-in-law, Bruce Ballantine. --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 15:21:01 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ji's Kicking Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray gave an adequate list on Sin Moo Kicking. If you want to see the EXACT visual representation of this list just look at the Basic kick section in Dr. Kim's first Hapkido Bible book and you will have them in their exact corresponding sequence. Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Persistent heartburn? Check out Digestive Health & Wellness for information and advice. http://gerd.msn.com/default.asp --__--__-- Message: 12 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 09:47:01 -0600 (CST) From: thomcat@binary.net (J Thomas Howard) Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Student Types... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com > Subject: [The_Dojang] common student types > FYI, the original author of the piece is unknown. I'm glad some of the > instructors got a laugh out of it, and thanks to those who contributed their > solutions and added characters to the list. Well, unknown is a relative term. :) That list of student types is from my website (hapkido.4t.com---in the MA Humor section). It comes from a hilarious selection of postings from the rec.martial-arts group a long time ago. About half of them I contributed, and the rest I copied (with permission from the thread contributors) from various posts from the newsgroup, and then added editorial comments to them. I can always tell who has an earlier copy of the list---I've added a couple of types over the years, plus more editorial comments as time went on. I don't remember several of the people who posted some student types, so in that respect the complete author is unknown. I'll note that for those people who are bored, the humor section of my site also contains a section on "Martial Arts Accidents," also taken with permission from postings on the rec.martial-arts newsgroup, with people talking about various things that have happened to them in their martial arts classes. Some funny stuff there. Thomas ------------------------------------ thomcat@binary.net hapkido.4t.com "If you aren't modeling what you are teaching then you are teaching something else." --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 07:57:14 -0800 (PST) From: MIND and BODY FITNESS LLC To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Learning to fight Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. West I do like what you have written about the sf & rangers. They are most certainly well trained and very technologically advanced fighting units. Your statement about their hand to hand being sub standard is quite accurate. 3 years ago my sensi had several BB students as officers in the rangers stationed at Fort Campbell Kentucky. The BB's were sickened by the lack of hand to hand skills being taught to our young fighting men. They requested my sensi come up and teach several combat ivies courses to the men of the 101st. I was asked to accompany him and assist in the training. I have never served our country and was quite honored to help out. At the same time I was a little apprehensive about training with these "killers". To my shock and aamazementon our first day of training these "killers" were only kids (18-25yrs old). It pains me to say that as a 33 year old civilian who has never been in the military service of our country, I could have easily defeated 90% of the young men in the training course without even breaking a sweat. This was very upsetting to me because these young people are standing on the front lines protecting our way of life and are not being given the nnecessaryskills to ensure their survival which means our survival. I was very disgusted by the lack of training these kids were rreceiving So I asked my sensi how could it be that without a gun these guys could not fight their way out of a wet paper bag. His answer was that in the years after WWII and Vietnam our military has been Lowering their standards to even get people to join the service. What he said made great sense to me. During the training day prior there were at least 50 to 75 men standing off to the side of the field just watching the ccombativecourse being taught. I inquired about why they were not included in the course. The answer I rreceivedwas the training we were providing (at no cost) was optional and not required. After llearningthis I wandered over to the bunch of non participants and began to ask individuals why they were not participating. The answers, no I mean excuses I rreceivedwere hhorrifyingto hear as a civilian. They ranged from "I only joined for the college money", to a wweeny"I am out on medical condition" or " It is not required so I am just taking paid break to watch and smoke." I have been in martial training since I was 16 years old and to see the lack of determination to be the best you can be in the army makes me sad. Why would you not make a hand to hand combat ivies course required for these "best of th best"? Please do not think I am saying "all" sf & rangers are of this mentality. I know several who are in the service and doing all they can to help our country. I just wish we could maintain the high standards of hand to hand training and still get people willing to join the service. This is a hard balance to achieve in today's society. I guess like in all training Martial arts or Military training you have some who only want to put out the minimum effort to get by. There is the brighter side that there also is those who push their limits in all they do. Mike Cejka Mind & Body Fitness, LLC --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest