Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 12:19:05 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #167 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. I retired!!!! (Manuel Maldonado) 2. RE: differences between old kwans... (Rick Clark) 3. HKD/TKD (J R Hilland) 4. KICKS & KIDS & BLACK BELTS (Richard Tomlinson) 5. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Military_Supermen=3F_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 6. Master Marks comments (FirstPe315@aol.com) 7. Student Types (DrgnSlyr5@aol.com) 8. Re: HKD/TKD (jeffrey kiral) 9. Young Dr. T (J.R. West) 10. More on SF training (J.R. West) 11. ITF GrandMasters (was North_vs_South) (Robert Martin) 12. RE: Learning to fight (Martin Von Cannon) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Manuel Maldonado" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 08:45:28 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] I retired!!!! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Im pleased? to announce that I finally retired from the US ARMY... Well I retired on March 12 2004 with a service connected disability, but never the less retired. No more hair cuts shaves etc... Just thought I'd share with my freinds on DD. Tae Kwon Maldonado Song Seng ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Limited-time offer: Fast, reliable MSN 9 Dial-up Internet access FREE for 2 months! --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] differences between old kwans... Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 11:49:11 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: Damian Jones [mailto:damian_j_jones@hotmail.com] > Ray Terry wrote; > "Most kwans seemed to focus one signature technique/kick and was their > primary > sparring technique. Thus you could frequently tell what kwan someone was > from based on their favorite/best technique." > > Does anybody know what the signature techniques for the different kwans > are/were? Chung Do Kwan - at least those I was associated with in the early 60's, was the side kick. It was a side thrust kick not to be mistaken with the Shotokan version that was a side snap kick. In Chung Do Kwan back then we never would use the side snap kick. If I remember correctly one of my Korean instructors told me Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan's kick was the Round house. And I "think" Chido Kwan was a front kick. But I am open to correction on these two kwan's kicks. > > Thanks > Damian Rick Clark "Illegitimis non carborundum." ("Don't let the bastards grind you down.") -Gen. Joseph Stilwell www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 11:13:04 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] HKD/TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I know this comes up on the DD every few years, but Alain, I am glad you placed your original post on this subject on your website. In fact, I think I will link it from my site. The site is at http://www.burrese.com/Articles/Hapkido_self_defense_martial_arts/Hapkido_Is _A_Complete_Art.html. But if Ray does not mind the bandwidth I would like to post the article by Alain: "Often I hear the comment, “Oh, we do Hapkido too,” from someone who trains in TKD or some other art. The problem is not with people who have trained in more than one art, but in that many places teach a few joint locks and hoshinsul techniques from a Hapkido curriculum, and then claim they “do” or “teach” Hapkido too. It seems that these people do not realize the fact that Hapkido is a complete martial art, and not something you just “add” onto another style. The schools I trained at in Korea were Hapkido schools, and Hapkido schools only. Hapkido was not a few joint locks added on the side, but the complete martial art that it is, including training in breathing, falling, blocking, striking, kicking, joint locks, throws, forms, weapons, and more. We did Hapkido every class, every day. (And for me, it was two classes a day Monday through Friday and then one on Saturday) To advance through the ranks of Hapkido, you must train in all these areas. I do not have anything against a TKD instructor who wants to teach some joint locks or self-defense techniques from Hapkido to help his students be better martial artists and more rounded. But it should be called what it is. “We practice some techniques from Hapkido,” not “We do Hapkido too,” and advertising as a Hapkido school. There really is a big difference in adding a few things on, and training at a Hapkido school where that is all they do. Now there are some people that have earned the rank in both arts and can teach both. The programs will be different, and not really interchangeable, since a TKD class and HKD class are different, since they are different arts with different emphasizes. And it is interesting that so many TKD schools add HKD, where I have not seen a HKD school that added TKD. I’m not knocking TKD, but it is sort of interesting, don’t you think? And it is TKD schools that seem to “add HKD on” the most. If you are a TKD instructor, and you teach some Hapkido techniques that you have learned in the self-defense or hoshinsul portion of your class, great. Just be sure to let your students know that these are just a portion of what you would learn in a Hapkido program. If you want to learn Hapkido, I recommend a Hapkido program, not just a little added on to something else. The Hapkido program should have its own curriculum and teach all of the things listed above. Note, a school can have a TKD program and a separate Hapkido program, and if you go to both you will find they are quite different, or at least they should be. Or, as I did in Korea, and as you can do elsewhere too, you can go to a school that is Hapkido only. The main thing is to realize that Hapkido is a complete art and not just the addition of a couple joint locks and throws to something else." by Alain Burrese. Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Richard Tomlinson" To: Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 12:53:47 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] KICKS & KIDS & BLACK BELTS Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Learning kicks... very important to learn the chamber... front kick, round house is taught with knee up straight foreward facing target.. with round house once pivot is done and leg ready to kick knee still faces target... these chambers allow for breaking each kick down into single moves... ie.... for snap kick, first move knee up, that job is finished so that muscle group need not do anything else, from there from the knee to foot does the work and completion of impact but to finish a kick retraction to the chamber must occur.. retraction helps speed and balance. When I teach round house I make students retract enough to kick their own butts... of course this is only to get the point across and develope healthy habits early! Side kick... chamber at the knee while learning or for breaking, higher chamber for fast sparring technique.. height? well unless your sparring partner's chest or scoring area is 6' 5"..... but for demonstration and flexibility height is good.. if one can kick 6', then 5' is easier. But even at my own level, I need to constantly break down any kick to the basics, for instance my round houses feel weird to me... eventhough thats the way Ive been doing them for a while... guess thats the problem! Time to precision again! Also a good aide for helping to get the full extention on a side kick, use two targets, place one in front of the other.. eventhough the first looks to be the kicking target its really the one behind it so one must go through the first to hit the second. I did this with a student whom was testing and was breaking with a back round house and worried about power... with the two target concept she increased her power almost 100 %. As far as kids and black belts, we award them but because they have passed the kids corriculum. Once old enough to attend adult classes they start all over since not only has their bodies changed in abilities but their minds have become more mature. They still have their belts but now the requirements of that belt are much more demanding so to progress to another dan means knowing techniques at their level. Ive never heard of an 18 ish or early 20 ish old master in our group. Masters are adults well into many years of training and teaching. Anyway, I love when I can start black belt teens on an adult basis, its exciting to them and new territory, plus it confirms their growing maturity and responsibilities not only physicaly but mentaly. At that age a sense of spirituality begins so the martial arts phlosophy can be introduced. just a little stuff from my little world :) sandy --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 12:40:14 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Military_Supermen=3F_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mike: "......I have been in martial training since I was 16 years old and to see the lack of determination to be the best you can be in the army makes me sad....." Don't be too hard on them. One of the best kept secrets of the military is that we field a force of highly trained and highly motivated elite warriors. Much as I wish it were so, this is just not the case. Excepting the more thoroughly trained elite forces, the typical soldier is no more specialized in fighting than anyone else on the street. The difference comes in with the individuals. For instance I can remember units in Phu Bai, DaNang, Pleiku and Nha Trang where guys took advantage of people who taught various martial arts. At the same time a greater number of soldiers took advantage of the bars and brothels. Its just people being people--- Nothing special about it. Here in the States we get the same thing. People giving MA a half-a$$ed swing and moving on to something else when the novelty wears off. If people were more invested in staying in shape and taking acre of themselves a lot of teachers would not have to worry about keeping their school doors open. Even many of the people who do stay with MA, begin to look to cut corners and make excuses about advancement and performance. Sometime back I made some comments about LEO-s not taking advantage of MA training, and it sounds like you ran into many of the same attitudes with the group of lurkers at your event. >From a commercial standpoint KMA people like to promote the KMA as being for anyone and everyone and that just isn't so. It takes determination, spirit, perseverence and maturity to stick with MA training and those qualities are not always available in large quanitites in the general public. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 13:40:31 -0500 From: FirstPe315@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Marks comments Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Seidel: Although I would agree that a broad range of "non-physical" aspects define what being a warrior is all about, I think the statement below is not accurate. Despite the fact that the Special Forces gentlemen (the ones I have met weren't really) learn a fair amount of hand-to-hand, what makes them effective is their mindset, not their technical ability. If you had a 20-year Martial-Arts veteran trained at something "self-defense" oriented and had a portion of the Special Forces mentality, the Seal or Green Beret guy would be out of their league. Jeff In a message dated 4/2/2004 8:20:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > Anyone that is studying Martial Arts just for the technical side could fare > far better joining Special Forces, Navy Seals or Ranger school. In my > opinion teaching Martial Arts without the philosophy is a > shame and a crime. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 13:52:26 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Student Types Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thomas writes: < Well, unknown is a relative term. :) >> Thanks for letting us know the origins of the piece. Interesting -- I got it from another list by permission, posted by a person in the U.K. Sharon --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "jeffrey kiral" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] HKD/TKD Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 14:09:05 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I agree...Hapkido is a complete art...But this statement raises a question from me..I have visited many HKD school websites, and I have taken a look at the belt requirements at each one. The question I have is this: Since Hapkido IS a complete art, then why are such "watered down" versions of it being taught? If many of the Masters have truly trained in Korea, or from original students of GM Choi or GM Ji, or even from these GM's top students, how is it that the Hapkido being taught is NOT the complete art we are talking about? IMHO a black belt should have a much greater grasp of the art than what I can see...I am not knocking anyone or their dojang, just curious as to why or how this is happening. ----- Original Message ----- From: "J R Hilland" To: Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 9:13 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] HKD/TKD > I know this comes up on the DD every few years, but Alain, I am glad you > placed your original post on this subject on your website. In fact, I think > I will link it from my site. The site is at > http://www.burrese.com/Articles/Hapkido_self_defense_martial_arts/Hapkido_Is > _A_Complete_Art.html. > > But if Ray does not mind the bandwidth I would like to post the article by > Alain: > > "Often I hear the comment, "Oh, we do Hapkido too," from someone who trains > in TKD or some other art. The problem is not with people who have trained > in more than one art, but in that many places teach a few joint locks and > hoshinsul techniques from a Hapkido curriculum, and then claim they "do" or > "teach" Hapkido too. > > It seems that these people do not realize the fact that Hapkido is a > complete martial art, and not something you just "add" onto another style. > The schools I trained at in Korea were Hapkido schools, and Hapkido schools > only. Hapkido was not a few joint locks added on the side, but the complete > martial art that it is, including training in breathing, falling, blocking, > striking, kicking, joint locks, throws, forms, weapons, and more. We did > Hapkido every class, every day. (And for me, it was two classes a day > Monday through Friday and then one on Saturday) To advance through the > ranks of Hapkido, you must train in all these areas. > > I do not have anything against a TKD instructor who wants to teach some > joint locks or self-defense techniques from Hapkido to help his students be > better martial artists and more rounded. But it should be called what it > is. "We practice some techniques from Hapkido," not "We do Hapkido too," > and advertising as a Hapkido school. There really is a big difference in > adding a few things on, and training at a Hapkido school where that is all > they do. > > Now there are some people that have earned the rank in both arts and can > teach both. The programs will be different, and not really interchangeable, > since a TKD class and HKD class are different, since they are different arts > with different emphasizes. And it is interesting that so many TKD schools > add HKD, where I have not seen a HKD school that added TKD. I'm not > knocking TKD, but it is sort of interesting, don't you think? And it is TKD > schools that seem to "add HKD on" the most. > > If you are a TKD instructor, and you teach some Hapkido techniques that you > have learned in the self-defense or hoshinsul portion of your class, great. > Just be sure to let your students know that these are just a portion of what > you would learn in a Hapkido program. If you want to learn Hapkido, I > recommend a Hapkido program, not just a little added on to something else. > The Hapkido program should have its own curriculum and teach all of the > things listed above. Note, a school can have a TKD program and a separate > Hapkido program, and if you go to both you will find they are quite > different, or at least they should be. Or, as I did in Korea, and as you > can do elsewhere too, you can go to a school that is Hapkido only. The main > thing is to realize that Hapkido is a complete art and not just the addition > of a couple joint locks and throws to something else." by Alain Burrese. > > Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "J.R. West" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 13:13:46 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Young Dr. T Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read: How could I forget Master West's own Master Instructor Tavod T. (sorry I'm afraid I'm gonna mispell his last name). As he is just in residency now (for MD) I'd say he was 25 or younger when I took his session in Jackson. Obviously he is an exceptional individual if he has a 4th Dan as a direct student of Master West. I said: Dr. Javad Tavassoli was well over thirty when he recived his 4th dan from me, and started his training when he was about 13........I'll admit that he looks MUCH younger than that.....Perhaps it's the training! Thanks for the plug, I'll pass it on to Dr. T.......J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "J.R. West" To: Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 13:24:59 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] More on SF training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read: "I have never served our country and was quite honored to help out. At the same time I was a little apprehensive about training with these "killers". To my shock and aamazementon our first day of training these "killers" were only kids (18-25yrs old). It pains me to say that as a 33 year old civilian who has never been in the military service of our country, I could have easily defeated 90% of the young men in the training course without even breaking a sweat." I said: Whenever I have been involved with teaching these guys, the only ones that were invited were the senior NCO's, who would then pass the techniques to their subordinates during regular "Army training" (to quote Bill Murray). The first couple of times I did this, I had to prove myself to these guys, and after that, it was a piece of cake. The largest man in a beret that I have ever seen was a major by the name of Mike Wadsworth, who prior to being the #2 man in the 2nd Ranger Training Batallion, was an enlisted medic....He knew me "back when" and shared some history........Smooth sailing, and some great written comments on the course by the boys in green.........J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Robert Martin" To: Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 12:37:57 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] ITF GrandMasters (was North_vs_South) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > There are three groups using the name ITF. > > > > 1. ITF with NK president > > www.internationaltaekwon-dofederation.com > > 2. ITF with Gen. Choi's son as president > > www.itf-admin.com > > 3. ITF with Master Tran Quan as preisdent > > www.tkd-itf.org > > I think of these as "North Korea", "Canada", and "Vienna" > respectively. > [...] > > > Gen. Choi introduced TKD to North Korea in the ealy > > 1980's. (Several Americans traveled with that demo team including > > Chcuk Sereff.) The North Korean's took to it very quickly and have > > been a dominate force in world championship competition since > > then. However, it is hard to judge how much influence they had on > > the later developement of techniques, etc. The three grandmasters > > that the Gen. Choi promoted had a bigger impact -- one American and > > two South Koreans (one Korean living in the UK and one in the > > US). It appears that only one of these is still with the ITF. > > Two questions: in what ways do you see GMs Rhee, Hwang, and Sereff as > having influenced technique and so forth? Do you have any specific > examples? I'm very curious about this. GM Hwang certainly had a > distinctive style. > I cannot speak about GM Rhee or Hwang directly. However, both were members of demo teams and worked with the General on technical development. GM Sereff appears to have had an impact on breaking, step sparring and the introduction and development of ITF continious sparring. GM Sereff also traveled extensively with the General and assistated him in seminars. This was throughtout the world. > Secondly, I'm curious about that last statement. Last I heard, GM > Sereff was with the Tran Quan ITF in some fashion; and also last I > heard, both GM Rhee and Hwang were with the North Korean / Chang Ung > ITF (although GM Hwang's letter, posted here by Master Terry a week > or two back, might indicate a coming change). > All three ITF groups communicate with GM Sereff apparently. There is a lose relationship between GM Sereff and the Master Tran Quan group. Officially, there is no formal relationship between any ITF and the USTF. All three ITF groups had representatives in Australia that met with GM Sereff during the championship last fall. > In other words: AFAIK, all three GMs are with the ITF, in one form or > another. Is this not the case? > I don't think so. I get the impression the GM Hwang is planning a different path, GM Sereff has officially resigned the USTF and himself, and there is talk of GM Rhee retiring before to long. Robert Martin --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Martin Von Cannon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Learning to fight Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 11:43:36 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Cejka, I agree with what you have said and have witnessed the same. You are correct in saying that not all Rangers and SF have this way of thinking. Your assessment was probably correct in that you could have defeated 90% of them, as long as it was HTH. That is where you are stronger. Switch the roles and get on their strong side, team tactics with small arms. They would stomp you (and your team). I am sure you know that. What some of us do not realize is that the military is it's own martial art. One thing that is taught in schools is self-discipline. You learn that from day one in the Military. Square your stuff away and help your buddy. The elite side of the military may not be taught anything about the martial arts the way you and I are. They do learn techniques for killing and maiming. They do not learn to check or block to defend themselves. They are put through heavy training and pushed to the limit both physically and mentally and yet they keep going. If I could run a class the way some of the training was I received in the Military, I would be out of a job (and dojang). If the students stepped up to that challenge, they would be in better shape, perform better, and not complain about being tired. This, of course, is just my opinion. - Martin Von Cannon Instructor Tacoma, WA. Dojang -----Original Message----- From: MIND and BODY FITNESS LLC [mailto:mindandbodyfitness@sbcglobal.net] Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 7:57 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Learning to fight Mr. West I do like what you have written about the sf & rangers. They are most certainly well trained and very technologically advanced fighting units. Your statement about their hand to hand being sub standard is quite accurate. 3 years ago my sensi had several BB students as officers in the rangers stationed at Fort Campbell Kentucky. The BB's were sickened by the lack of hand to hand skills being taught to our young fighting men. They requested my sensi come up and teach several combat ivies courses to the men of the 101st. I was asked to accompany him and assist in the training. I have never served our country and was quite honored to help out. At the same time I was a little apprehensive about training with these "killers". To my shock and aamazementon our first day of training these "killers" were only kids (18-25yrs old). It pains me to say that as a 33 year old civilian who has never been in the military service of our country, I could have easily defeated 90% of the young men in the training course without even breaking a sweat. This was very upsetting to me because these young people are standing on the front lines protecting our way of life and are not being given the nnecessaryskills to ensure their survival which means our survival. I was very disgusted by the lack of training these kids were rreceiving So I asked my sensi how could it be that without a gun these guys could not fight their way out of a wet paper bag. His answer was that in the years after WWII and Vietnam our military has been Lowering their standards to even get people to join the service. What he said made great sense to me. During the training day prior there were at least 50 to 75 men standing off to the side of the field just watching the ccombativecourse being taught. I inquired about why they were not included in the course. The answer I rreceivedwas the training we were providing (at no cost) was optional and not required. After llearningthis I wandered over to the bunch of non participants and began to ask individuals why they were not participating. The answers, no I mean excuses I rreceivedwere hhorrifyingto hear as a civilian. They ranged from "I only joined for the college money", to a wweeny"I am out on medical condition" or " It is not required so I am just taking paid break to watch and smoke." I have been in martial training since I was 16 years old and to see the lack of determination to be the best you can be in the army makes me sad. Why would you not make a hand to hand combat ivies course required for these "best of th best"? Please do not think I am saying "all" sf & rangers are of this mentality. I know several who are in the service and doing all they can to help our country. I just wish we could maintain the high standards of hand to hand training and still get people willing to join the service. This is a hard balance to achieve in today's society. I guess like in all training Martial arts or Military training you have some who only want to put out the minimum effort to get by. There is the brighter side that there also is those who push their limits in all they do. Mike Cejka Mind & Body Fitness, LLC --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest