Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 03:01:51 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #169 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Master Marks comments (Mark Seidel) 2. ITF GrandMasters (was North_vs_South) (Dave Steffen) 3. Bruce on Black Belt (George Peters) 4. hkd dojang (J R Hilland) 5. Re: Master Marks comments (Ray Terry) 6. Re: hkd dojang (jeffrey kiral) 7. Re: Tournament Posting (mark rutherford) 8. RE: Learning to fight (Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy) 9. Developing techniques (Rudy Timmerman) 10. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Learning_to_Fight?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 11. Physical Training (Randall Sexton) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Mark Seidel" To: Cc: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Master Marks comments Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 09:46:29 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jeff, Do I know you or do you know me your subject line "Master Marks comments", rather than Master Seidel (which strangers tend to call me) most people I know call me Master Mark. Secondly, I believe if you are the Jeff I am thinking of, I know you have Military training, which would explain your comment about "most of the special forces gentlemen I have met"; are you JJ the referee? If you remember the Zen story of who was faster the fox or the rabbit and who would be faster in a chase, the Zen Master proclaimed that "the rabbit would, because the fox is running after his dinner and the rabbit is running for his life" Thus the Military in combat are trained to fight for their life, whereas most Martial Artists' are trained to fight for a trophy or a medal. I give great and respectful exception to the hundreds of Martial Artists that train to protect their life daily and never step foot in a tournament and I do know that there are exceptions as well for special forces. MM Master Mark Seidel The Midtown Academy Martial Arts School Special Needs and Exceptional Child Specialist -----Original Message----- From: FirstPe315@aol.com [mailto:FirstPe315@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 1:41 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Marks comments Master Seidel: Although I would agree that a broad range of "non-physical" aspects define what being a warrior is all about, I think the statement below is not accurate. Despite the fact that the Special Forces gentlemen (the ones I have met weren't really) learn a fair amount of hand-to-hand, what makes them effective is their mindset, not their technical ability. If you had a 20-year Martial-Arts veteran trained at something "self-defense" oriented and had a portion of the Special Forces mentality, the Seal or Green Beret guy would be out of their league. Jeff In a message dated 4/2/2004 8:20:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > Anyone that is studying Martial Arts just for the technical side could fare > far better joining Special Forces, Navy Seals or Ranger school. In my > opinion teaching Martial Arts without the philosophy is a > shame and a crime. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Dave Steffen Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 10:12:00 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] ITF GrandMasters (was North_vs_South) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: "Robert Martin" > Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 12:37:57 -0700 [...] > > > Gen. Choi introduced TKD to North Korea in the ealy > > > 1980's. (Several Americans traveled with that demo team > > > including Chcuk Sereff.) The North Korean's took to it very > > > quickly and have been a dominate force in world championship > > > competition since then. However, it is hard to judge how much > > > influence they had on the later developement of techniques, > > > etc. The three grandmasters that the Gen. Choi promoted had a > > > bigger impact -- one American and two South Koreans (one > > > Korean living in the UK and one in the US). It appears that > > > only one of these is still with the ITF. > > > > Two questions: in what ways do you see GMs Rhee, Hwang, and > > Sereff as having influenced technique and so forth? Do you have > > any specific examples? I'm very curious about this. GM Hwang > > certainly had a distinctive style. > > > > I cannot speak about GM Rhee or Hwang directly. However, both were > members of demo teams and worked with the General on technical > development. > > GM Sereff appears to have had an impact on breaking, step sparring > and the introduction and development of ITF continious sparring. GM > Sereff also traveled extensively with the General and assistated > him in seminars. This was throughtout the world. I didn't know this - thanks. > > Secondly, I'm curious about that last statement. Last I heard, > > GM Sereff was with the Tran Quan ITF in some fashion; and also > > last I heard, both GM Rhee and Hwang were with the North Korean > > / Chang Ung ITF (although GM Hwang's letter, posted here by > > Master Terry a week or two back, might indicate a coming > > change). > > > All three ITF groups communicate with GM Sereff apparently. There > is a lose relationship between GM Sereff and the Master Tran Quan > group. Officially, there is no formal relationship between any ITF > and the USTF. All three ITF groups had representatives in Australia > that met with GM Sereff during the championship last fall. > > > In other words: AFAIK, all three GMs are with the ITF, in one > > form or another. Is this not the case? > > > I don't think so. I get the impression the GM Hwang is planning a > different path, GM Sereff has officially resigned the USTF and > himself, and there is talk of GM Rhee retiring before to long. Thanks for the clarification. I agree it's likely that GM Hwang is making his own plans. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Dave Steffen, Ph.D. Wave after wave will flow with the tide Raytheon IIS And bury the world as it does tkd-physics@comcast.net Tide after tide will flow and recede Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2004 12:47:50 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce on Black Belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, When I read your post I was struck by the similarities between what you and I both say on the "weighty responsibilities" incurred upon being bestowed the honor of Dan rank. I have always likened this to accepting and recieving knighthood after a sort and tell the new Dans that they are now responsible for far more than just basics and advanced techniques, that a martial artist should always try to touch the community and impact things in positive ways, whether its helping cut the grass for an elderly neighbor, or finding the time to somehow help provide for that disadvantaged child that everyone knows. Even thoiugh it seems that my words most time fall on deaf ears, I think a few times a student has picked up the torch, and carried into the world the true message of just what a martial arts student is, a caring, hard working individual who will go the distance to help others to have and so try to prevent strife through a feeling of community. I know it's all that and more than I have time or space to write, so thank you for letting me add a few of my thoughts on the matter. Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 11:53:28 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] hkd dojang Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Having spent the past 6 years in Ohio, I understand. Although I now live in Fargo, when we first moved to Cincinnati, I went to every dojang that said 'hapkido'. They really did not have a basic grasp of the art. Some admitted it was only on the sign for marketing reasons. It was all taught as a 'supplement' to taekwondo. So I opened the areas only hapkido dojang. My experience with hapkido in the rest of the state, was about the same, very few good hapkido dojang. But, like it or not, hapkido is the flavor of the month and everyone wants to do it, they just do not want to put the time in the rank and truly learn the art, they just want the paper. Many taekwondo/hapkido instructors simply do not know how to teach hapkido as a separate art (there are some fine exceptions). When I first moved to Fargo last month, a local taekwondo 4th dan, told me that she was a 1st dan in hapkido after taking a one weekend seminar. She was proud of this. She also claims that she is a 5th dan in the KMA because of the 2 arts. Another fellow claims he is a 14th dan in the KMA because he holds a tkd (Kukkiwon) 6th dan, gumdo 4th dan, hkd 4th dan, yet only has a taekwondo dojang. Still haven't figured that one out either. The type of attitude that hapkido is not an art but a supplement to taekwondo is a fad, one that I hope goes away soon. But as long as there are hapkido organizations that skip dan rank, or let people play the paper game, without putting quality time in hapkido training, the pretenders are going to be around. So I do understand and share your frustrations. Some of the organizations in Korea and the rest of the world, are happy to give hapkido dan ranking to taekwondo teachers of high rank, it gives them prestige, in their eyes. Just like some are happy to skip dan rank to get more 'international' students. It is about quantity, not quality for them. But if you have been here on the DD a few years, you have read enough about the get together in Jackson. For example, this year, the best of the KHF, NKMAA, USKMAF, Daehan Kidohwe, Sinmoo, etc. were represented and teaching fine traditional hapkido. It just doesn't get any better. Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Master Marks comments To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 09:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Do I know you or do you know me your subject line "Master Marks comments", > rather than Master Seidel (which strangers tend to call me) most people I > know call me Master Mark. Mark, We tend to not get too hung up over titles here. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "jeffrey kiral" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] hkd dojang Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 16:00:24 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you...if the timing is right I will eventually attend a seminar of some sort...but only if you or Master Allen are there! :) I already pretty much thought it was the quantity and money deal for the "strip mall Mcdojang" thing ( to quote The Martialist )....its too bad it has to be that way...I am extremely proud to study Hapkido, and its too bad that everyone cannot get the real deal. ----- Original Message ----- From: "J R Hilland" To: Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 9:53 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] hkd dojang > Having spent the past 6 years in Ohio, I understand. Although I now live in > Fargo, when we first moved to Cincinnati, I went to every dojang that said > 'hapkido'. They really did not have a basic grasp of the art. Some admitted > it was only on the sign for marketing reasons. It was all taught as a > 'supplement' to taekwondo. So I opened the areas only hapkido dojang. My > experience with hapkido in the rest of the state, was about the same, very > few good hapkido dojang. But, like it or not, hapkido is the flavor of the > month and everyone wants to do it, they just do not want to put the time in > the rank and truly learn the art, they just want the paper. Many > taekwondo/hapkido instructors simply do not know how to teach hapkido as a > separate art (there are some fine exceptions). When I first moved to Fargo > last month, a local taekwondo 4th dan, told me that she was a 1st dan in > hapkido after taking a one weekend seminar. She was proud of this. She also > claims that she is a 5th dan in the KMA because of the 2 arts. Another > fellow claims he is a 14th dan in the KMA because he holds a tkd (Kukkiwon) > 6th dan, gumdo 4th dan, hkd 4th dan, yet only has a taekwondo dojang. Still > haven't figured that one out either. The type of attitude that hapkido is > not an art but a supplement to taekwondo is a fad, one that I hope goes away > soon. But as long as there are hapkido organizations that skip dan rank, or > let people play the paper game, without putting quality time in hapkido > training, the pretenders are going to be around. So I do understand and > share your frustrations. Some of the organizations in Korea and the rest of > the world, are happy to give hapkido dan ranking to taekwondo teachers of > high rank, it gives them prestige, in their eyes. Just like some are happy > to skip dan rank to get more 'international' students. It is about quantity, > not quality for them. But if you have been here on the DD a few years, you > have read enough about the get together in Jackson. For example, this year, > the best of the KHF, NKMAA, USKMAF, Daehan Kidohwe, Sinmoo, etc. were > represented and teaching fine traditional hapkido. It just doesn't get any > better. Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 14:36:05 -0700 (PDT) From: mark rutherford To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Tournament Posting Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Sirs: Please post Circle City Taekwondo Championships 10/16/04 Indianapolis, IN --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 18:26:11 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Learning to fight Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Great post Kip! It seems like just yesterday I was in Panmumjom... I do miss it in a way. I'm glad to hear that the military's focus on MA training is making a turn for the good. We have a MP Reserve Unit and a Artillery National Guard Unit both within 5 miles from my dojang and home. I just may give them a call over the summer to see if they are interested in such training. The National Guard I know is in Iraq right now, just got there. My stepbrother is their 1st LT. James Morgan GTKDA --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 19:58:28 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Developing techniques Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net MC writes: > the reverse punch of Steve "Nasty" Anderson. Like Walace he > had mastered one technique to a level no one else could deal with Hello Charles: You are so correct in this, as I have seen both of these men destroy people with one or two simple techniques that they had mastered to the point where most others could not touch them. Bill had some devastating hand technique to follow up after his kick. I also recall some of the other early fighters who had developed such skills, and Flem Evans comes to mind with his patented backfist that was near unstoppable. As always, it is better to be a Master of some than a Jack of all Trades who can't do much with most of what s/he has learned:) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 18:57:26 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Learning_to_Fight?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....Prime example, the situation in Iraqi. Those guys using primitive weaponry...are still killing our soldiers. We have all this technology yet can't completely squash primitive forces....." Ah, yes. Reflecting on my past, its surprising how tenacious a guy living on cold rice and a little fish can be. Booby traps made out of trenches with sharpened stakes in the bottom and grenades tucked neatly in a tin can. The Japanese have a saying-- "Any man can be killed". I don't remember them saying that it takes 100 tons of bombs (smart or dumb), an artillery barrage or a regimental-sized combat assault. The most dangerous person in the World is someone who has absolutely nothing left to lose if only because they will come on with no concept of moderation or reason. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Randall Sexton" To: Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 17:11:51 -1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Physical Training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well, I've lost 15 pounds over the last two months doing solo training. Now, I'm about to start PHYSICAL training with a guy here named Scrapper, who won Future Brawl 6 in 1996 and Super Brawl 13 in 1999. So... if I become part of the food chain during an ocean swim, or if my ticker gives out during a run, or I choke on my own vomit, please dedicate a buffet to me during one of the seminars. Randall Sexton www.USAHealthcareCrisis.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest