Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 07:31:04 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #174 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Portland (Kevin) 2. Women in the arts (Rudy Timmerman) 3. Oregon NKMAA seminar (Rudy Timmerman) 4. Re: Reply to Linda McPharlin (Marc Jones) 5. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Future_of_Hapkido?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 6. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:Complete_arts?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 7. Re: hapkido (Master Allen) 8. Wannabees (Curt Nieckarz) 9. Re: Re: Too many techniques??? (Master Allen) 10. "complete" self-defense systems (SPIVEY JR) 11. from another group.... (Jye nigma) 12. hapkido: time required to learn (SPIVEY JR) 13. HAPKIDO KICKS (Michael D'Aloia) 14. Re: "complete" self-defense systems (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Kevin" To: Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 20:01:20 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Portland Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Lori, I have not yet firmed up a date with Master Timmerman yet but will let you know when I do. Yes, I plan on having it open to all ranks and styles. You are more than welcome to stop in on my classes anytime. Sincerely, Kevin Janisse Kevin_janisse@hotmail.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 02:49:16 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Women in the arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mac writes: > Hopefully, Mindy can learn to be as mean… I mean as good at putting > the hurt on as Master Renee was. Hello Mac: Last time I saw Mindy, it looked to me she was well on her way. If I were you I'd find her a new partner:) Regarding women in the arts: The first student I promoted to Master was a woman, and Rhonda and Renee had a ball "working" with the boys in Mosinee a few years back. Seems like mean women like each other for company to compare notes, as the two of them got along famously right from the get go. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 02:56:38 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Oregon NKMAA seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Lori writes: > Rudy, please let us know when and where your seminar will be in > Portland > this August. Hello Lori: I'll be in Oregon August 20-23rd or perhaps a few days longer (depending how much work my boy who lives there needs:). I'd love to say hello to all the DD folks in that area. I'll have Kevin fill in the details, as he is the organizer. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 04:59:39 -0700 From: "Marc Jones" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Reply to Linda McPharlin Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ><Granted her Father is a TKD master..>> > >Nice statement Mr. Jones...."and a Girl no less!!"  Had to reread it to >make >sure my eyes weren't playing tricks on me.  I have not been involved in >this >list long enough to know if you are kidding, but if not, that's a pretty >backwards attitude. > >Regards, > >Linda McPharlin Linda McPharlin, Dear Linda It was not really a joke, neither was it a serious comment of surprise that a Female could actually achieve a good standard in the MA's I am not surprised at all, indeed the Secretary General of that Organisation is a Female 7th Dan Master, also an exceptional exponent of TKD. I just thought it was worth highlighting the fact of her gender as many might have assumed in the undeniable and unfortunately male dominated world of MA's that the student would have been male (perhaps i should have used different words to do this...) There are still sadly not enough women in the MA's I only felt it was worth giving credit where it was due.. I dont know of a 14yr old boy that has managed the same achievment.!! I had and have the greatest respect for Lucy (the young lady in question) and witnessed her kick the S**T out of many people on the mat aswell as her exeptional hyung/tul performances I credited in the original post.. I have not heard of how she is doing since I left TKD to focus on HKD, but i am convinced she would still be going from strength to strength. My Partner Emma is one of my students and is preparing to take her 1st Dan later this year, I can assure you that every single Adult male in the class is aprehensive about taking her on having seen her in action.. even the Dan Grades! She serves both as an assistant instructor and as a role model for the many females (children and adults) I teach, and for most of the Male students too!. She is an amazing woman, she has just recently returned from Tanzania where she climbed 19,000ft up to the top of Mount Kilimanjaro for a childhood Leukaemia Charity. I do not have a backward, sexist or chauvanistic attitude to women in life or in MA, I apologise if my post was not very well written to reflect this. I never like to cause offence or be misunderstood, but I am pleased about one thing from my post and your reply to it; It has led to several people again paying tribute to the memory of Master Renee West. Although I never met her it is obvious to me how well loved and respected she was by everyone who did know her. I offer my own thoughts and respects to Master JR West and family on the loss of a remarkable person who seems to have had an amazing influence on so many people. My Best Regards Marc --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 07:05:14 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Future_of_Hapkido?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Bernard: "......When you first started out on the DD you were very apprehensive of training with other styles/people and (to my recollection) were regularly asked to attend this do down in Jackson. After declining for a number of reasons and for some time, you obviously attended. Since then you have attended more than once and are one of the most ardent supporters of this event and the major players who represent themselves at it. Does this not illustrate the move toward better quality control and the further enhancement of KMA in general and Hapkido in particular? Heck, when I first joined the DD this list was a predominantly tae kwon do discussion forum, now how much bandwidth is given to Hapkido related discussion over Taekwon, gumdo, tangsoo do etc?...." In fairness I think we are talking about a matter of degree here. I would have been (and continue to be) genuinely defensive about ANY activities associated with Hapkido. I was as guarded about participating in JR's event as I was about getting involved with Rudy. It took quite a bit of cajoling by Rick to get me to attend one of Ji's events. I have been a very vocal critic of the KHF though I may ultimately be accepted as a member. You are very right, Bernard, I am very guarded and defensive with my art. I DON'T care for mixing in material from other arts. I DON'T care for people who put promotion ahead of the art. And, I tend to be very critical until someone has proven to me beyond a shadow that what they are doing is for the good of the art and not just padding their meal ticket. You are absolutely right. I suppose people could ask by what authority I take this on to myself and I tell you that I have no authority at all. I don't pretend that I represent any power or organization. My agenda is no state secret. I want to pass a sound art on to the next generation and leave the Hapkido arts better than when I came upon them. Its just that simple. Hope this helps. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 07:34:19 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:Complete_arts?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: ".....Are/were they "complete" arts? i.e. how do you think they are using the term complete? Or do you really care.?. :)....." OK, so what ARE we calling "complete"? Hapkido as taught as a Mu-Do has a good range of chokes, locks, pins, projections and throws. It has a good range of strikes and kicks. It has a fine collection of weapons. That sounds pretty complete to me. HOWEVER: Does it have EVERY technique? Does every technique work all the time? Does it cover every weapon ever conceived by Man? So, what are we calling "complete"? I submit that the concept of a "complete" art is a commecial construct promoted by commecial schools to keep students dependent. To support this I point out that people in the KMA have repeatedly supported the use of more popular and commonly available material (both armed and unarmed) than in working on older and more obscure material. In this way people play to what is easy and popular to keep enrollment up than in being historically and culturally correct. Finally there is the matter of limits. By this I mean that Hapkido, for instance, does not have the kicking range that some TKD arts do. It does not have the ground fighting that BJJ has. It does not have the punching science that Western Boxing has. People in commerce are not about to admit that Hapkido might have some deficits because then the student will move on to try and find that all-elusive "perfect art" so as not to waste his valuable time and money on a lesser venture. Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Master Allen" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] hapkido Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 08:48:00 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net MANY of the martial artists I know doubted me when I said that Hapkido will be the number one martial art of choice in 5 years. I have been in the US for 4 years now and it is happening. I hate to say I told you so but......... I am so glad that our art is finally getting seen, we need to do more. I would like to gather some of you upper ranking people together and start an "Inside Hapkido Magazine". We will need writers, editors, and such. Who is in and who is out. We will need investors too. Master Jeff Allen Chief Instructor President-American Headquarters www.hapkiyoosool.com www.intlhapkido.com International Hapkido Federation ----- Original Message ----- From: J R Hilland To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 7:36 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] hapkido Well the flavor of the month now is BJJ, they created an art, then built an entire sport around it. An empire actually, but not everyone wants to get in a ring and fight. Some don't care about trophies or have been there and done that. Many Korean MA still want to stay within the Korean context and keep the dojang a dojang. Yes, it takes a long time to become proficient in hapkido, but it is worth it and traditional hapkido is an honorable and exciting art. There is a lot to learn. For those seeking this kind of path, hapkido will be around. Bruce's comment about people being grand fathered into hapkido organizations is on the mark. It is as bad as dan and organizational jumping in my opinion. But the leaders of these organization need to remember what 'time in rank' and 'quality of technique' is all about. They have lost touch with what traditional hapkido is about. Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com <<>> <<>> <<>> _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Curt Nieckarz Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 09:12:43 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Wannabees Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Curt, That would be college age wannabees. Hope I didn't offend." Master Richards, No offense taken. It's been my experience that SEALs are in excellent shape. After BUD/S, SEAL candidates must attend the Army Airborne school which some people consider to be a fairly tough 3 weeks. The SEALs regard it as a vacation. --Curt --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Master Allen" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Too many techniques??? Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 09:19:00 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, I agree about lower numbers of technique which are more able to be perfected and then expanded as training permits and combat experience teaches. There should always be realistic training in the Dojang. Real people attacking at real speed at full power. Loose the pads. Our style (Hapkiyoosool is Korean for Aikijujutsu) only has 12 basic techniques which as in Aikido can be used according to type of attack and number of attackers. If people are committed (a word people are scared of) to an art for life, you find that by sticking with something and completing your training. People will learn ALL they need to defend against ANY kind of attack. People will commit to a 4 year car payment but, they won't commit to something that can save their life and that of of their family? That's insane! As far as too many techniques, I can say this. I think most are confused. Out of the 12 basic techniques of Hapkiyoosool, there are about 6~8,000 applications. Yes, they are all techniques for arguments sake. As I said before, according to type of attack and number of attackers. Note: we should always defense as if there are multiple attackers. NEVER assume there is only one, the bushes can hide many men. The TV commercials show up to 20 people coming out of a Honda! ^_^ TO everyone: Enjoy your training and share with others. NO MARTIAL ART is better than another. (if it is a real martial art and not a money making competition based sport). Remember, there is NO friendly competition in the military. Martial means military. Don't sugar coat things people. Martial arts are designed to break things and kill people. Control is used according to circumstance. We ruined martial arts by making them "fun and easy to learn". We have gotten lazy and insecure in our own systems and want to "cross train". I love my wife, it is not always cherry blossoms. I would NEVER "cross train" on her. I work at the relationship with blood, sweat, and tears. Martial arts is a relationship that binds you to your instructor. ALL martial arts have their perfect applications, it is the poor quality of instruction and instructors that make the art incomplete. The techniques of EVERY marital art are perfect. We as humans are the fail able part. Just a note of commitment. Not a bragging right. I have been in Hapkido for 26 years and NEVER trained in anything else. I can say that I have no problem defending against ANY kind of attack. Granted I grew up under Koreans and trained in Korea most of my life. That is no excuse to say, " I am better than anyone else" because I am not. I have at least another 50 years of practice ahead of me. I have all LOOOOOOOOOONG way to go. We are only as good as we practice and as our instructors are able to teach us. Hopefully, they were taught the right way. Master Jeff Allen Chief Instructor President-American Headquarters www.hapkiyoosool.com www.intlhapkido.com International Hapkido Federation ----- Original Message ----- From: bsims@midwesthapkido.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 8:00 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Too many techniques??? Dear Ray: ".....I submit that there is no "complete" system of self-defense (save for my trademarked "We Have That, Too" system :), as it would contain far too many elements to master or learn......" I don't know if I go along with that. General Qi came up with 32 methods that was more than enough for his men to take care of themselves. GM Myung has a Ke-bon-su which is 10 techniques and I understand that Aikido is essentially permutations of 8 techniques used this way and that way. I think you are right that anyone can make something harder and harder to learn. The Shaolin Temple is recorded as having to divide its curriculum up into 12 arts, each under a particular animal totem, just to be able to manage all the material brought to them over the years. Personally I think that people with some commecial bent continually add material (or change or rearrange it) so as to keep students dependent on them for the next big thing. I don't consider this sort of dependency actual education as much as greening the art. As far as teaching a lot of techniques, the only reason I can see that is so that each individual is exposed to enough techniques as to develop their own personal catalogue of 20 or so tried and true, never-fail techniques. This catalogue won't be the same for everyone so each person needs to be exposed to the entire curriculum so as to have a fair chance at identifying his particular group of no- fail techniques. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 06:55:22 -0700 (PDT) From: SPIVEY JR To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] "complete" self-defense systems Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ok, i'll rephrase to be a bit more specific... hapkido is as complete a system of unarmed self-defense as you will find among the traditional asian martial arts. i definitely did not have tactical firearms techniques in mind. do you have in mind any specific unarmed attacks (or even close-quarters armed attacks by single assailants) that traditional hapkido does not have a counter for? this was really the essence of my post. hope this clarifies things... regards, howard --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 07:02:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] from another group.... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Can you look up on your Korean and Chinese online sources for the location of a ancient Korean kingdom called (#39640;#40599; Kôrai/Korai), its from around 1049 ad. This is roughly the location that Ikai (Yi Gai) and Chô Bushô (Zhang Wu Sheng) came over to Japan from Korea. Tanemura says Ikai was the same person as Chô Bushô, but I am unsure of this, Hatsumi lists them as being different people. If you find any links/maps and info, please post them. Also if anyone can find the location of a army called (#20161;#23447; Ren Zong, Sung province) in China. This army defeated the armies of (#22865;#33311; Qidan) and (#22799; Xia) and Ikai from (#22235;#27743; Sijian/Su Chang) was with the Qidan/Xia side and lost and fled to Iga the lineage says. You might need to find a Korean college student online who knows this or can look, and can also convert Chinese/Japanese characters to the Korean characters. thanks in advance, Ninpô Ikkan, TH --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 07:07:33 -0700 (PDT) From: SPIVEY JR To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] hapkido: time required to learn Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net jere, i hope it was clear that i was agreeing with your points about traditional hapkido. when i say it takes a long time to become proficient at its techniques, i do not mean that as a negative criticism. there are still some of us who don't mind (in fact, even enjoy) putting in the time and effort. my point was that it's this very thing that turns off a lot of people. they go to a few traditional hapkido classes, figure out that they can't learn these techniques in 90 days, and they lose patience and move on to something else where you get a new belt color every couple of months. regards, howard --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Michael D'Aloia" Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 09:49:17 -0400 (EDT) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] HAPKIDO KICKS Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi. I spoke to Grandmaster Lim, Hyun Soo (http://jungkikwan.com/index.htm), my teacher last evening. GM LIM studied with Founder, Choi, Yong Sool and earned 9th Dan from him. He informed me that Choi, Yong's Sool's original Hapkido had very few kicks (only about 10 kicks). He further stated that Ji,Han Jae and and from what I could understand a Master Kim (possibly Tae Kwon Do) added the kicks. Master Michael D'Aloia www.jungkihapkidoamerica.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] "complete" self-defense systems To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 07:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > do you have in mind any specific unarmed attacks (or even close-quarters > armed attacks by single assailants) that traditional hapkido does not have > a counter for? That is why I try to not limit my thinking to only one range or armed vs. unarmed, or some subset of weapons. That is why I don't believe any single art is complete. That is why this is a life long journey. imho Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest