Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 14:17:05 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #175 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: Too many techniques??? (Ray Terry) 2. Types of Belts... (Dennis McHenry) 3. hapkido (J R Hilland) 4. hapkido: time required to learn (J R Hilland) 5. Hapkido...Martial Art of Choice (Stovall, Craig) 6. To Marc about women in martial arts (Linda McPharlin) 7. Hapkido (J R Hilland) 8. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Number_of_techniques?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 9. I AM WOMAN.... (Lori L Brown) 10. Hapkido kicking range? (Patrick L) 11. Re: Oregon NKMAA seminar (Lori L Brown) 12. Re: Re: Number of techniques (Master Allen) 13. Re: "complete" self-defense systems (Master Allen) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Too many techniques??? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 07:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ... If people are committed > (a word people are scared of) to an art for life, you find that by sticking > with something and completing your training. People will learn ALL they need > to defend against ANY kind of attack. "Any" kind of attack? I have serious doubts about that. It is great to be confident, but foolish to be over confident. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 15:37:46 GMT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Dennis McHenry Subject: [The_Dojang] Types of Belts... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net " Can somebody tell me the correct colors of a 7th Dan (Grandmaster), and a 9th Dan (Grandmaster) belt. This is in the art of Tang Soo Do. Are they black or black with a red stripe in the middle. " Like someone else already mentioned, it can vary between orgs. The most common is for 4th Dans and up to have one red stripe down the middle of their midnight blue or black belt, but I also have one that 4th and up wore that had the red stripes running along the top and bottom. I know also that GM Shin has a red and white blocked belt, and GM JJ Kim has one that is red on one whole side, and midnight blue on the other. I know other masters who don't have a stripe at all on their belts (like our own Master Charles Richards). You'll need to check with the instructors in your org. Hope this helps, Mac (I have belts with no stripes, one red, and 2 red stripes) ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 10:44:57 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In context, my definition of a complete art was that hapkido is an 'independent' art that can be studied alone for a life time as opposed to the discussion of hapkido as a supplemental art. It all depends on the context and your definition of a complete art. Like Mac once said, you would have to practice taking a knife away from someone seriously trying to hurt you while driving down the interstate at 70 mph for 'real' practice. Of course, that would just be silly. To quote Alain "It seems that these people do not realize the fact that Hapkido is a complete martial art, and not something you just “add” onto another style. The schools I trained at in Korea were Hapkido schools, and Hapkido schools only. Hapkido was not a few joint locks added on the side, but the complete martial art that it is, including training in breathing, falling, blocking, striking, kicking, joint locks, throws, forms, weapons, and more." In that context, hapkido is a complete art. Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com <<>> --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 11:02:17 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] hapkido: time required to learn Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Howard: You make a good point and I agree. It is a catch 22. We live in a 'fast food' society, and yes there are many 'fast food' type dojang out there. True, in hapkido we are not going to get the 'fast food' type, but then again, they won't stay with it, so it is ok. I would rather have students that stick with it, anyway. During Master West's black belt class at his dojang in Jackson, you will see 3 dozen black belts in the class. You can find any one of the 4th dan, now grown with a family of their own, who started as a white belt in that dojang when they were just kids. That is a typical story in that dojang. So I say, let the belt mills have those who want a shinny new belt every month. In the long run, it will all work out. Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com <<>> --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 11:04:06 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido...Martial Art of Choice Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Hmmmmmm, not to doubt the efficacy of your statement, but this just doesn't jive with what I see happening in the "industry". Not that Hapkido CAN'T become one of the more prominent arts in terms of enrollment and following, but I just don't sense it at the present time. In fairness, Hapkido has certainly grabbed a bigger portion of the "magazine pie" over the last decade. You see gobs of articles now compared to 5, 10, 15 years ago. Unfortunately, the good portion of this publishing windfall has been engineered by the Shaws, Pelligrinis, and Hackworths of the world. I don't put Shaw and Pelligrini in the same boat as Hacky (I don't know them from Adam...I only know Hackdiddy by reputation), but I think the point I'm trying to make is that I'm not sure the "right" people are always at the forefront in terms of presenting Hapkido's "public face". Does that make sense? I hope no one is insulted by that statement. So, I see a whole lot of magazine coverage about people who sure as hell ain't camera shy, but I sense that they'd still be getting the coverage no matter WHAT art they were presenting. I'm not sure the increased coverage is the result of "consumer demand", but rather the result of the magazines' pulling from a material submission pool that has been skewed by some very enterprising "Hapkido folks". Again, I hope that makes sense. What do others say? Has there really been a considerable growth over the last few years in terms of student enrollment and retention? If so, why is that? Is it part of the overall phenomenon of people gravitating to the "new grappling paradigm", and away from the "old striking paradigm"? Or, are people just now figuring out that Hapkido is a "great art", and are now immersing themselves in the Hapkido experience? Or, is it all or none of these? Just drumming up some discussion... CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Linda McPharlin" To: Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 01:50:38 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] To Marc about women in martial arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Hi Marc, Boy was I hoping you would say that. I apologize for jumping down your throat on that one, and I hope you can excuse my extremely defensive attitude. Generally, I don't consider myself to react easily to other's comments, yet I have had it up to my 'you know what' in sexist attitudes concerning martial arts. Many have mentioned how tough and mean the women are that they know in martial arts. I think the reason female martial artists tend to be so mean is that we are tired of being looked down upon, talked down to, or altogether dismissed. We are tired of having to prove and reprove ourselves and our abilities, although it is kind of fun sometimes to beat up a man who thinks you are a weak and demur little girl. :-) No where else is my daily socializations with human beings, including the workplace, have I felt more discriminated against for being a woman than in martial arts. This includes attitudes from both martial artists and non-martial artists or wannabe-martial artists alike. I guess the only answer is to keep beating up those who doubt us. :-) Thanks for your comments. Sincerely, Linda McPharlin --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 11:12:22 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I don't know about that. There are 100 taekwondo dojang for every hapkido one. My students in Cincinnati used to comment that they drove past a dozen martial arts schools just to get to our dojang as we were the only hapkido dojang in Cincinnati. Now that I am in Fargo, we will have the only hapkido dojang in this part of the country. A hapkido magazine? Was that not tried a few years back? We do have the DD. It would be nice to see a hapkido magazine with the quality of the Journal of Asian Martial Arts, or Aikido Today Magazine, instead of ones like Taekwondo Times and Black Belt. Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com <<>> --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 11:38:15 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Number_of_techniques?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jeff: "......I agree about lower numbers of technique which are more able to be perfected and then expanded as training permits and combat experience teaches. There should always be realistic training in the Dojang. Real people attacking at real speed at full power. Loose the pads. Our style (Hapkiyoosool is Korean for Aikijujutsu) only has 12 basic techniques which as in Aikido can be used according to type of attack and number of attackers. If people are committed (a word people are scared of) to an art for life, you find that by sticking with something and completing your training. People will learn ALL they need to defend against ANY kind of attack. People will commit to a 4 year car payment but, they won't commit to something that can save their life and that of of their family? That's insane!....." I have to tell you, Jeff, that anymore I am not sure WHERE I am with hapki-yu-sool. I like the fact that you come right up front and say "we have 12 techniques" and that is what you do. On the other hand I wonder at an art that bespeaks such close ties with DRAJJ. I mean, if the relationship is that close why wouldn't you just take up with a DRAJJ group, yes? For myself I like the extra challenge of our kicking material, and I like some of the Chinese flavor that I have uncovered and now stress a bit more. All the same I don't know that I would foregoe the Japanese influences exclusively for Chinese either. TangSooDo has a nice mix of kicking and grappling though I think of it more in terms of something akin to what Bong Su Han does in the IHF. What keeps you from going into one of the more combative forms of Aikido, then, like Tomiki? As far as the idea of commitment--- well, we don't want to go down that path. I think my views on the commitment-phobic nature of many KMA practitioners is pretty wellknown. FWIW. BTW: I was also wondering if your efforts to start up an E-zine might not be better served by getting such a category appended to one of the better known resouces like EJMAS that Joe Svinth has? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Lori L Brown" To: Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 10:46:03 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] I AM WOMAN.... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Linda wrote: "Many have mentioned how tough and mean the women are that they know in martial arts. I think the reason female martial artists tend to be so mean is that we are tired of being looked down upon, talked down to, or altogether dismissed. We are tired of having to prove and reprove ourselves and our abilities, although it is kind of fun sometimes to beat up a man who thinks you are a weak and demur little girl. :-) No where else is my daily socializations with human beings, including the workplace, have I felt more discriminated against for being a woman than in martial arts." I hear you, Linda. With age, comes wisdom, I always make it a point to remind myself. So I have used the martial arts to help me mellow out a bit in my defensiveness about trying to be as good as everyone else -- I have 2 older brothers! ;-) Now I just value when someone can simply see me. Over the years, working with a bunch of "male" attorneys, no one could convince me that there was any more repressive cross section of men! I have heard women complain about doctors, too. So I guess we can add a few martial artists to the mix -- but they are not all like that. Thirty years ago, I would have totally agreed with you. I tried to study martial arts then, but was not taken seriously, was not even welcomed -- or more truthfully, I wasn't strong enough. In more recent years, I have come back to the martial arts seeing that there are more women involved, and families, and I have felt very welcomed. There seems to be more of a mentoring system in place -- which I really needed. What tweaks my defenses the most is "other women" who characterize themselves as being weak and helpless, whether it is in the workplace or in the martial arts. I may need to ask some of you "old wise ones" how to humble myself a little more when training with this one woman in our class full of men, who always looks at ME with a "wounded deer look" and says "don't hurt me!" How can we overcome that??? I feel like some of those women set us all up for the typical stereotype. But bravo for the women like Master Renee West, among others who have brought to the forefront a class of woman who can be both WOMAN and WARRIOR. Linda wrote: "although it is kind of fun sometimes to beat up a man who thinks you are a weak and demur little girl." May I so humbly share one of the greatest feelings I felt when one of the instructors decided to demonstrate to the class (with only 2 women) a neck choke from behind on me. I assumed he wanted me to follow through with the technique, but he was resisting so -- and out weighs me by about 100 lbs. I immediately tucked my chin into the angle of his elbow, trapped his arm, had to jerk a couple of times to shift his weight off center, tucked my shoulder and sent his flying. As all the men in class dropped their mouths to the ground, the instructor quickly stood up informing the class "see, you never underestimate anyone because of their size or gender!" I have thanked him many times for making my day. He told me that in all the years he has known me, he truly didn't think I had it in me. So, Linda -- maybe at times WOMEN TRULY DO HAVE THE POWER! May you go throughout the day with a smile -- knowing you can! Very respectfully, Lori Brown --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Patrick L" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 11:18:19 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido kicking range? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Sims wrote: >By this I mean that Hapkido, for instance, does not have the kicking range >that some TKD arts do. It does not have the ground fighting that BJJ has. >It does not have the punching science that Western Boxing has. People in commerce are not about to admit that Hapkido might have some deficits because then the student will move on to try and find that all-elusive "perfect art" so as not to waste his valuable time and money on a lesser venture. Thoughts? < I disagree entirely with the kicking range comment. The HKD I know has far greater demands for kicking than any TKD I have seen. I think Hapkido has kept itself in the crucible of growth over the last 60 years, and will continue to do so. I have intentions of refining/expanding our "Defense against Judo" technique to deal with the increased probability of facing grappling due to the popularity of NHB and WWF. Others hinted that it is the difficulty of HKD that causes students to quit after about 90 days. IMHO It is not HKD, it is people. It takes the average person about three months do determine if love is going to bloom between them and the new physical endeavor. Getting in the WAY, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Free up your inbox with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Multiple plans available. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Lori L Brown" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Oregon NKMAA seminar Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 13:21:27 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rudy writes: "I'll be in Oregon August 20-23rd or perhaps a few days longer (depending how much work my boy who lives there needs:). I'd love to say hello to all the DD folks in that area. I'll have Kevin fill in the details, as he is the organizer." Good Afternoon. The dates in August are on my calendar. As soon as Kevin has all the info and flyers, I will be happy to help promote and distribute them among many students that I know would be very excited about your seminar. Looking forward to it myself! Lori --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Master Allen" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Number of techniques Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 17:08:44 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net As far as DRAJJ, we are the same yet different. We do kicks and they do not. We do kick defense much more extensively. My ranking is recognized by the Japanese as DRAJJ. I would like to start up a club as such but, all my training was in Korea. Same art yet, taught on a different cultural perspective. We do not move like robots. Real time. Tomiki Aikido is good. I have been in Hapkido for 26 years and have 50 years to go before I kick the bucket. I plan being committed to my style and instructor until I die. It's just how I was raised. Closed minded I guess. ^_^ E-Zine sounds good. Master Jeff Allen Chief Instructor President-American Headquarters www.hapkiyoosool.com www.intlhapkido.com International Hapkido Federation I have to tell you, Jeff, that anymore I am not sure WHERE I am with hapki-yu-sool. I like the fact that you come right up front and say "we have 12 techniques" and that is what you do. On the other hand I wonder at an art that bespeaks such close ties with DRAJJ. I mean, if the relationship is that close why wouldn't you just take up with a DRAJJ group, yes? For myself I like the extra challenge of our kicking material, and I like some of the Chinese flavor that I have uncovered and now stress a bit more. All the same I don't know that I would foregoe the Japanese influences exclusively for Chinese either. TangSooDo has a nice mix of kicking and grappling though I think of it more in terms of something akin to what Bong Su Han does in the IHF. What keeps you from going into one of the more combative forms of Aikido, then, like Tomiki? As far as the idea of commitment--- well, we don't want to go down that path. I think my views on the commitment-phobic nature of many KMA practitioners is pretty wellknown. FWIW. BTW: I was also wondering if your efforts to start up an E-zine might not be better served by getting such a category appended to one of the better known resouces like EJMAS that Joe Svinth has? Best Wishes, Bruce _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Master Allen" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] "complete" self-defense systems Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 17:10:37 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net As far as I have seen, what I have learned under Grandmaster Jang, it defends for anything. Literally. I have never needed to learn anything else. Master Jeff Allen Chief Instructor President-American Headquarters www.hapkiyoosool.com www.intlhapkido.com International Hapkido Federation ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] "complete" self-defense systems > do you have in mind any specific unarmed attacks (or even close-quarters > armed attacks by single assailants) that traditional hapkido does not have > a counter for? That is why I try to not limit my thinking to only one range or armed vs. unarmed, or some subset of weapons. That is why I don't believe any single art is complete. That is why this is a life long journey. imho Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest