Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 03:01:52 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #182 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Hapkido workout (J.R. West) 2. Re: Who promoted Choi? (Chris LaCava) 3. Re: Switch-Spin Kick? (Bernard Redfield) 4. RE: Who's here (Chris LaCava) 5. same techniques over & over (David Weller) 6. Re: Re: Who promoted Choi? (Ray Terry) 7. Re: Female Martial Artists (TKDgalSamm@aol.com) 8. TKD Kicking (FirstPe315@aol.com) 9. Hapkido Question (FirstPe315@aol.com) 10. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Conflicting_Messages?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 11. RE: Same TKD techniques over and over (Thomas Gordon) 12. Re: Jang = Kang ?? (Master Allen) 13. Politics (Todd Miller) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "J.R. West" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 17:01:50 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido workout Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net There will be an open Hapkido workout for blackbelts on Friday, April 23rd (6:00 - ?) and Saturday the 24th (1:00 - 4:30) at West's Hapkido Academy in Jackson, MS.....Cost?..Time and sweat! Any black belt DD'ers are more than welcome to attend. There will be a get-together at Chez JR on Friday night...........J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Chris LaCava" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 18:06:04 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Who promoted Choi? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray T <> All I know is that everybody has their own version of who started Hapkido and that's fine, but the claim that Dojumin Choi Yong Sul only promoted 3 individuals to 9th dan is fact. Nothing more, nothing less. Unlike many stories going around in the Korean arts, the one above can be varified and backed up. To me that's a breath of fresh air. I have to say that I get a little bored with the "battle of names" as I'm sure many other people do also. Who called what, what? It's very similar to the John Pellegrini issue. If JP called his style something else many Hapkido people wouldn't care what he's doing. This can also be seen in Choi's Hapkido and Ji's Hapkido... nothing but a "name game." Bottom line...Train hard, screw the names! Take care Chris "from CT" LaCava's Martial Arts Westport, CT. http://lmaa.bravepages.com Online Store- http://www.cafepress.com/hapkidogear _________________________________________________________________ Free up your inbox with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Multiple plans available. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 18:10:06 -0400 From: Bernard Redfield To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Switch-Spin Kick? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<<<< We train at many kicks that are designed for in close kicking. A switch spin will knock your wind out or break a rib and this is executed when someone is in your face.>>>>> Could you describe what a switch spin kick is? I am not familiar with the term and may know it by another name. and how close do you mean, like chest to chest? Bernard --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Chris LaCava" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 18:11:54 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Who's here Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jeff A. <> Hey Jeff. Nice to see you here too. :) Take care Chris "from CT" LaCava's Martial Arts Westport, CT. http://lmaa.bravepages.com Online Store- http://www.cafepress.com/hapkidogear _________________________________________________________________ Tax headache? MSN Money provides relief with tax tips, tools, IRS forms and more! http://moneycentral.msn.com/tax/workshop/welcome.asp --__--__-- Message: 5 From: David Weller Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 17:20:46 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] same techniques over & over Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net SIr, This seems a bit unusual to me. I can certainly understand doing many things again and again in your training, that is one way we try to perfect technique. And in TKD (Kukkiwon is my only experience) the material can become somewhat repetitive at Dan rank. But to learn NOTHING new is a problem. At 1st dan you should be able to throw a roundhouse or snap kick or any of the other basic or advanced kicks "properly" (note: not "perfectly", which is our always sought after, never achieved, goal). If you can honestly say you cannot do those basic techniques "properly" (again, not perfectly) then you have been cheated in your training, or you underestimate your skills. At Dan rank the new material (in my experience, at the little school I train in) would consist more of self defense, applications of various kicks, improved timing, breathing... etc rather than completely new kicks.... Next time he asks you if you can perform the technique "properly", answer "Yes Sir!". See if that changes his answer. Then again, your instructor may not have anything more to teach you, and if that is the case, you need to move on. respectfully, dave weller On Apr 12, 2004, at 3:13 PM, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > From: "L. L." > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 18:06:01 +0000 > Subject: [The_Dojang] Same TKD techniques over and over > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > I have trained in TKD for 4 years and received my black belt in 2002. > Since then, my instructor has been doing the same routine and the same > techniques over and over again in class. He does not have classes that > are for beginner, intermediate, advanced. > >  I have noticed that over the period of the 4 years of my training alot > of students have left his school. Right now he has mostly black belts > and > a few colored belts. > > I am not an experienced martial artist or an instructor, but it would > make sense to me that he would start teaching more advanced techniques > as > well as continuing to implement basic techniques-once a person gets to > a > certain level. > > I have asked him before in the past-why doesn't he teach different > things > or advanced techniques. He would ask me if I knew how to throw a > roundhouse kick or front snap kick properly. I would say no. Then he > would say-how can I teach you advanced techniques if you don't have the > basics. I totally agreed with him on this. > > But, my question is-can you teach how to throw a round house kick and > other basic techniques in a different way other than the same rountine > you have been using over the past 5 years? > > HOw do you stay motiviated if you are taught the same routine over and > over again? > > Some students have left because they are not motiviated on not > challenged > anymore. > > I recently left his school and started training in karate. I am still > interested in continuing my training in TKD , but I don't have anyone > else to go to. > > Do anyone have any advice for me? > L.L --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Who promoted Choi? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 15:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > All I know is that everybody has their own version of who started Hapkido > and that's fine, but the claim that Dojumin Choi Yong Sul only promoted 3 > individuals to 9th dan is fact. Nothing more, nothing less. Unlike many > stories going around in the Korean arts, the one above can be varified and > backed up. To me that's a breath of fresh air. Granted. But lots of stories can be verified and backed up. Unfortunately I suspect we'll never know who promoted Gm Choi. In those days (1940s and 50s) most all of the Korean masters promoted themselves anyway. Or they formed a board and then promoted each other. Bottom line, at the end of the day, rank means little. 1st Dan or 9th... can you come through when you 'face the elephant' (in terms used by Col. Jeff Cooper). I guess for the higher ranks a second question comes into play. Can your students come thrugh when they face the elephant. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: TKDgalSamm@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 20:40:18 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Female Martial Artists Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 4/12/2004 3:58:54 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: My instructor (who I think is very much the type who gives females their due) is fond of saying that as a female you have to be twice as good to get half the respect. And he means from society / other martial artists in general. He is also quick to say that we have the greatest group of female students that he's ever had... They are tremendous technicians and absolute killers in self-defense... I haven't weighed in on this subject, but I may as well. I understand the statement above, but, I think it is more accurate is to say a female has to be twice as good to get half the respect from: A. Thugs B. Male chauvinist pigs C. Guys who like to get hit (go figure, I get IM's all the time asking me stuff like, will you hit a guy full force???) D. Guys who just don't know any better E. Male martial artists who have never encountered a serious female martial artist. The serious, educated male martial artists I've encountered know better than to disrespect a female martial artist just because she's a girl. As a female, anyone that doesn't respect a martial artist based on gender alone doesn't matter a bit to me. I'm with Sharon (drgnslyr5) ... it's definately to my advantage for them not to consider me a threat. In my opinion based on my experience with martial artists of just about every age and back ground, it is VERY dangerous to underestimate ANY person! Bottom line, if you don't respect a martial artist, doesn't that equate to underestimating on some level? It terms of putting the hurt on someone, I've seen some people who looked every minute of harmless put the major hurt on someone, so yeah, I think so. Respectfully, Loretta --__--__-- Message: 8 From: FirstPe315@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 21:22:22 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD Kicking Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Indeed you are right. I think I "alluded" to that fact in my post. I was however, drawing a minor critique of the norm, rather than the exception. BTW...a wheel kick when somebody grabs you. Is that a Chuck Norris wheel-kick (i.e. kicking somebody with the outside of your foot). If that's the case, my only warning would be if you are going to try a head kick with somebody that close you you, you better be damned good AND hope they don't step in or move you the second your foot raises from the ground. Sounds like a Hapkido practitioners dream attack to me.. Jeff In a message dated 4/12/2004 1:58:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > There are other switch kicks were the kicker does not travel any distance > in > any direction. There are also inner and outer wheel kicks that will ring > your > bell which can be executed when someone has grabbed you. > > There is more to TKD than what one might see in the Olympics. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: FirstPe315@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 21:58:05 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Question Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Has anybody ever heard of Hwa Won Yue Hapkido? Just curious. Jeff --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 21:04:34 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Conflicting_Messages?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Folks: I'm having a bit of trouble understanding just what it is that people would like each other to believe about this whole rank thing. For my part, I think its pretty important to have some idea of how ones' art proceeds from some source. What I am not following is when people start ranking people as though a 7th, 8th, 9th or 10th dan are actually suppose to mean something. When I was in the military I never found any particular correlation between a persons' rank and their competence or leadership abilities. And I must say, in all candor, that I have not found any sort of great correlation between rank and abilities in the Hapkido arts as well. For the sake of arguement lets just say that Choi was authorized to give out a 9th degree and he did it to three people. OK. Now what exactly am I suppose to believe about these three folks? Were their technical skills so uncanny that Choi chose to acknowledge this with rank? Is a 10th dan supposedly twice as sharp as a 5th dan? Are they suppose to be the designated inheritors of the Hapkido arts--- all three of them? Are all other teachers in the world expected to forego recognition and pay fealty to these three people? I don't like sounding dense but we go over this material time and again and I have no idea what it is that people want to have believed about such status or the people who hold it? Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Same TKD techniques over and over Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 21:12:28 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "I have asked him before in the past-why doesn't he teach different things or advanced techniques. He would ask me if I knew how to throw a roundhouse kick or front snap kick properly. I would say no. Then he would say-how can I teach you advanced techniques if you don't have the basics. I totally agreed with him on this." Mr. L., I'm afraid I'd have to say "yes" just once to see what was next. :) I believe that a student should practice material until they have it down perfect. With that said, that is why I still practice a side kick so much. Mas Oyama practiced a basic punch thousands of times. I'd venture to say that he was pretty good at it. But that doesn't mean we can't add some new material along the way. There are many reasons the instructor may not have taught you but there are few reasons he wouldn't have taught anybody. Typically an instructor that stagnates his students (to the degree you elude) is indicative that the instructor is out of material. Sounds like you've already moved on. I've been there and I'd imagine many of the people on this list have been through similar experiences. Best regards, Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Master Allen" To: "the_dojang" Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Jang = Kang ?? Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 22:34:59 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray Terry, Hey you never know. The way that the Korean mispronounced and misspelled English at the time. Jeff Allen ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray Terry Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 1:01 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Jang = Kang ?? > Well, GM Jang has been doing Hapkido long before any of us, I believe he > started his training in 1949. I -believe- there is a Gm Kang (Jang?) that was dan #10 under Choi? This would have made him senior in Choi's kwan to even Gm Ji who was apparently dan #14. Do you know if this Jang is that Kang? Romanization and all, it could be the same name, but I don't recall the entire name. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Todd Miller" To: Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 22:25:41 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Politics Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Why? Politics. And statements like yours in the above para and similar one we've seen recently are nothing more than politics. They may have been the only 9th Dans in Choi's kwan, or perhaps in his yawara, but they were never the only 9th Dans in Hapkido. Time to stop making that claim... People do not always like to hear the truth! I am not saying any thing other than these are the only men Choi promoted to 9th dan in Hapkido/Yawara/Hapkiyusool/or whatever you feel it should be called. The question we should be asking here is where did all these others get there high ranks from? This does not mean that I do not have respect for these Masters, just questions of the whole grading proccess of some! Why are Lim, Chang and Kim (above) not given a special position or title in the KHF as are Choi and Ji? Before Choi's death he had parted ways with the KHF/KHA due to issues. It is understandable that they would not except the men Choi promoted. The good in all of this is that we ALL have a choice in the style of training we like best. The one thing is that Doju Nim Choi's influence is seen in all Hapkido no matter where you go. Take care Todd Miller Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Association www.millersmudo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest