Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 06:32:07 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #183 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: [The_Dojang]Re: Conflicting Messages (Master Allen) 2. Re: Re: Female Martial Artists (Master Allen) 3. Re: RE: Who's here (Master Allen) 4. Re: More on Zero In Korean (Master Allen) 5. Hapkido Ranks/Lineage (Michael D'Aloia) 6. Re: welcome to the new guy (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 7. Hapkido Lineage/History (Michael D'Aloia) 8. Hapkido Promotions and Rank (Amed Hazel) 9. Re: IHF lineage and instructor (Klaas Barends) 10. Way of Life (Pat Montini) 11. RE: Same TKD techniques over and over (Rick Clark) 12. hapkido history (J R Hilland) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Master Allen" To: "the_dojang" Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 22:59:12 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: [The_Dojang]Re: Conflicting Messages Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, I am with you all the way. I have seen many inflated ranks since we moved to the US, it is even getting out of control in Korea. I don't know how people are pulling it off. Jeff Allen ----- Original Message ----- From: bsims@midwesthapkido.com Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 10:47 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang]Re: Conflicting Messages Dear Folks: I'm having a bit of trouble understanding just what it is that people would like each other to believe about this whole rank thing. For my part, I think its pretty important to have some idea of how ones' art proceeds from some source. What I am not following is when people start ranking people as though a 7th, 8th, 9th or 10th dan are actually suppose to mean something. When I was in the military I never found any particular correlation between a persons' rank and their competence or leadership abilities. And I must say, in all candor, that I have not found any sort of great correlation between rank and abilities in the Hapkido arts as well. For the sake of arguement lets just say that Choi was authorized to give out a 9th degree and he did it to three people. OK. Now what exactly am I suppose to believe about these three folks? Were their technical skills so uncanny that Choi chose to acknowledge this with rank? Is a 10th dan supposedly twice as sharp as a 5th dan? Are they suppose to be the designated inheritors of the Hapkido arts--- all three of them? Are all other teachers in the world expected to forego recognition and pay fealty to these three people? I don't like sounding dense but we go over this material time and again and I have no idea what it is that people want to have believed about such status or the people who hold it? Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Master Allen" To: "the_dojang" Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Female Martial Artists Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 23:02:09 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Loretta, All I have to say is, I wouldn't mess around with any of our female students. "tough guy" visitors have tried, they did not like what they felt or having to get off the floor. ^_^ Jeff Allen www.hapkiyoosool.com ----- Original Message ----- From: TKDgalSamm@aol.com Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 9:18 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Female Martial Artists In a message dated 4/12/2004 3:58:54 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: My instructor (who I think is very much the type who gives females their due) is fond of saying that as a female you have to be twice as good to get half the respect. And he means from society / other martial artists in general. He is also quick to say that we have the greatest group of female students that he's ever had... They are tremendous technicians and absolute killers in self-defense... I haven't weighed in on this subject, but I may as well. I understand the statement above, but, I think it is more accurate is to say a female has to be twice as good to get half the respect from: A. Thugs B. Male chauvinist pigs C. Guys who like to get hit (go figure, I get IM's all the time asking me stuff like, will you hit a guy full force???) D. Guys who just don't know any better E. Male martial artists who have never encountered a serious female martial artist. The serious, educated male martial artists I've encountered know better than to disrespect a female martial artist just because she's a girl. As a female, anyone that doesn't respect a martial artist based on gender alone doesn't matter a bit to me. I'm with Sharon (drgnslyr5) ... it's definately to my advantage for them not to consider me a threat. In my opinion based on my experience with martial artists of just about every age and back ground, it is VERY dangerous to underestimate ANY person! Bottom line, if you don't respect a martial artist, doesn't that equate to underestimating on some level? It terms of putting the hurt on someone, I've seen some people who looked every minute of harmless put the major hurt on someone, so yeah, I think so. Respectfully, Loretta _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Master Allen" To: "the_dojang" Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Who's here Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 23:03:52 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey Chris Lacava! Good to see you too! Jeff Allen www.hapkiyoosool.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris LaCava Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 6:33 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Who's here Jeff A. <> Hey Jeff. Nice to see you here too. :) Take care Chris "from CT" LaCava's Martial Arts Westport, CT. http://lmaa.bravepages.com Online Store- http://www.cafepress.com/hapkidogear _________________________________________________________________ Tax headache? MSN Money provides relief with tax tips, tools, IRS forms and more! http://moneycentral.msn.com/tax/workshop/welcome.asp _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Master Allen" To: "the_dojang" Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] More on Zero In Korean Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 23:06:06 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bert, My wife and I say Jeero! ^_^ Jeff Allen www.hapkiyoosool.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Bert Edens Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 4:55 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] More on Zero In Korean Greetings, all... I know this horse was long ago flogged to death, but I thought I would respond with a reply from one of my Korean tutors... There are two different ways to say zero in Korean, and both are derived from Chinese. Yung is used for counting, math, etc. Kong/Gong is really only used when saying a phone number, etc., although you will hear Yung used sometimes there. Finally, Ppang is another way of saying zero, but is specific to scoring a zero on a test. Think of the Pop/Bang/Crack sound the word makes (like saying "Pong", the old Atari game), and you get the idea... :) Anyway, no replies necessary... Just thought I would pass it along... It sounds like Yung would be the most commonly used word for zero in Korean... <> - Bert Edens Springdale, Arkansas __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Michael D'Aloia" Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 23:22:52 -0400 (EDT) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Ranks/Lineage Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray, I was simply stating that Grandmaster/Founder Choi, Yong Sool only promoted two people to 9th Dan. (3 people to 9th dan as Master Todd Miller stated..thanks Todd for bringing that to my attention.) I NEVER said he (GM CHOI) should be the only person that can promote someone in Hapkido. However, one must admit there are many high-ranks in Hapkido out there--some justified/earned and some not. What does 7th, 8th, or 9th Dan mean? What is the criteria for such high rank? Since Hapkido is so fractured, there are many different standards/requirements for each Hapkido association. Thus, in the grand scheme of things, in my opinion technique and hard practice is more important than dan ranking. Some have promoted themselves to these high ranks or many have bought rank! When quoting me, you cut off the rest of my statement which is as follows... "There are many excellent Hapkido > instructors and masters out there. However, it is important to realize > that good Hapkido technique and hard practice is more important than rank. > Also, Hapkido is not only meant to be a martial art, but way of life. One > exercises the mind and body when practicing Hapkido. As Master Shin, 7th > Dan under Grandmaster Lim, Hyun Soo told me...Hapkido teaches one to live > a good and honest life first." Stay well and practice hard. It is always nice to discuss Korean martial arts with this group. Master Michael D'Aloia www.jungkihapkidoamerica.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 23:36:50 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: welcome to the new guy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "I see that this list is predominantly posted to by Hapkido artists, and was hoping it wasn't 'exclusively' devoted to Hapkido though. :)" hi dean, welcome to the list! you're right that there have been quite a number of hapkido related posts lately, however, the list is populated by a variety of students of many korean martial arts. dont let the hkd folks intimidate you...mostly, they just fight with eachother...lol. regardless, i believe the majority of posters on the list have the utmost respect for one another in spite of differing opinions. looking forward to hearing about your KSW experiences. take care, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Michael D'Aloia" Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 00:05:43 -0400 (EDT) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Lineage/History Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The whole debate below is fascinating. There definitely has to be a correct answer to this debate about the top ranks Choi, Yong Sool awarded. You raise an interesting point Ray that who made Choi, Yong Sool 10th dan? Well I suppose since he was the founder/head of the system, he was automatically considered a 10th dan. Well if GM Choi is not considered a 10th dan, then this whole debate is a mute point. What does it matter who is what dan rank then? Ray wrote.."They may have been the only 9th Dans in Choi's kwan, or perhaps in his yawara, but they were never the only 9th Dans in Hapkido. Time to stop making that claim..." According to Grandmaster Lim, Hyun Soo (http://jungkikwan.com/index.htm) Chang, Kim, and Lim himself only received 9th Dan from GM CHOI.... After closing his dojang, Founder Choi spent his remaining time at the Jung Ki Kwan with GM Lim. I believe GM Lim is an authority on this subject. GM LIM has his certificate from Choi, Yong Sool. (You can see it on his website.) I am not sure why these 3 are not recognized as contributors to Hapkido. If there are other true 9th dans in Hapkido, as you state Ray, where did they get their certification to be 9th dans in Hapkido? I suppose if one studied for numerous years under Choi, Ji, and others and start their own federation/system of Hapkido, then they become 9th dan?? If one decides to start one's own Hapkido association, then can anyone claim to be 7th, 8th, 9th or any rank? As Master Miller alluded to, there are some who self-promote and make claims. Look, there are many excellent masters/grandmasters out there teaching Hapkido. In the grand scheme of things I suppose what does it really matter what rank they are? Hapkido history is debated by many, but it fascinates me. What is most important to me is having a good teacher, hard practicing of good technique, and living a good life through the study/practice of Hapkido. We all can learn from each other. I am happy that we can all share our views and opinions in this Korean martial arts forum. Stay well and practice hard. Master Michael D'Aloia www.jungkihapkidoamerica.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Amed Hazel" To: Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 00:21:04 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Promotions and Rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I personally would LOVE to have somebody publish the attendence records for Chois' classes so that the world could see just who studied with whom and for how long. Best Wishes, Bruce >From what I hear from Gm Rim he has a copy up til 1973 and he is saying that many people that say they trained at such and such are not listed in the records. I don't want to cast a shadow on anyone name but many are probably hoping and praying that those records never become public. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 14:33:07 +0800 From: Klaas Barends To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: IHF lineage and instructor Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Grandmaster Jang was my direct instructor when I lived in Korea from > 1990~2000, that is undisputed. On my ID CARD, my instructor is listed as Baek > Hyun-Gol(5 Dan) who was a certified instructor under Grandmaster Jang as he > was there training with me at the Headquarters in Korea where I was training . Which headquarters? The one from your IHF of the my IHF? :-) And I guess during this period in the time, both IHF's were still united (???) > The key is that if a student receives their INSTRUCTOR CERTIFICATION before > another, all the students who join after that student received their > instructor certification will be listed as a student of that certified > instructor even though they trained directly under the Grandmaster IF that is > still confusing, I just don't know what else to say. I get your point, it's just a practice that I haven't seen before. > We are the IHF (Kuk Jae Yon Maeng Hapkido Hyub Hwae). As far as I understand, > since 1970. I know that Masuda Shihan from the Aikiai and masters of Daito-Ryu > were present at the Official Grand-Opening of Grandmaster Jang's Dojang in > 1971 in Pyongtaek(Song Tan) . In that case there seem to be several IHF's (we allready knew that). The IHF of Myung Jae Nam *is* recognized by the Korean government. Your website claims that your IHF is one of the three federations that is recognized as well. But later you state that your master dropped out, and started (or re-started) his own federation. This federation doesn't have recognition yet, but you are sure your master will get it or he won't be able to continue his work at a nearby base. Does this sum it up right? > I know that every dojang is inspected every quarter and audited every > year. If there was a problem, It was fixed quickly. I'm staying for quite while now, but I've never seen anything like a inspection or inspector or whatever. My teacher also says he's never heard of it. Maybe something specific as well??? Which part of the Korean government makes these inspections??? > I don't know many people in here. Those of you I do not know (not to be > arrogant, just to introduce ourselves). Who is your instructor, your rank, and > where do you practice? I would like to get to know everyone better since I am > new to the US and don't really know many people in here except Jere Hilland > and a few others. I currently stay in Korea for about a year (maybe longer). I stay with my instructor Ko Baek Yong (he knows your master, I guess your master probably knows mine) in ShiHueng (KyongKiDo) near Incheon (where he as a school as well). The name of his kwan is Sang Moo Kwan. http://www.sangmookwan.com/ > If accurate it looks like this approach is unique to your particular org, > but not to Korea or to HKD. In my teacher's (IHF related) dojang it is always the kwanjangnim who is mentioned on the certificates. -- mvg. Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 07:10:26 -0400 From: Pat Montini To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Way of Life Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Recently, there have been several postings as to viewing martial arts as A way of life. I have pondered that statement, and find myself very intrigued. With all due respect, I am very interested as to how the martial arts become a way of life for a person. Is it the values, discipline, respect??? Would appreciate your reflections as to how you live out this particular aspect in your life. I believe that some of the statements were made in the motivation responses, however, can anyone elaborate on it? Thank you Pat [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type text/x-vcard which had a name of pizzadp.vcf] --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Same TKD techniques over and over Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 08:25:14 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi LL >From: L. L. [mailto:heatwa2629@msn.com] >I have trained in TKD for 4 years and received my black belt in 2002. >Since then, my instructor has been doing the same routine and the same >techniques over and over again in class. He does not have classes that >are for beginner, intermediate, advanced. >I have asked him before in the past-why doesn't he teach different things >or advanced techniques. He would ask me if I knew how to throw a >roundhouse kick or front snap kick properly. I would say no. Then he >would say-how can I teach you advanced techniques if you don't have the >basics. I totally agreed with him on this. There is a point in time where you must move on from the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over (see how boring even this gets?) Should you expect a student will ever perform any techniques "perfect"? No, because nothing is perfect. >But, my question is-can you teach how to throw a round house kick and >other basic techniques in a different way other than the same rountine >you have been using over the past 5 years? Sure but it takes some imagination, skill, and knowledge that may or may not be possessed by instructors. > >HOw do you stay motiviated if you are taught the same routine over and >over again? > >Some students have left because they are not motiviated on not challenged >anymore. > >I recently left his school and started training in karate. I am still >interested in continuing my training in TKD , but I don't have anyone >else to go to. You don't stay motivated and you don't motivate your students. You have stated that you have left to study Karate, and students have left because they are not motivated or challenged. > >Do anyone have any advice for me? Sure, there are some real simple things you can do. Have you ever noticed that Doctors and Lawyers are required to take continuing education classes every year to keep their license current? This makes sure they are constantly learning once they leave school. Why should martial arts instructors and students not do the same thing? Go to a seminar and see something different, get a different perspective on techniques from a different instructor. If nothing else get around other instructors/students from other martial arts and talk about what they practice and try to pick up some insight from them. For example I have taught seminars with Vince Morris in the past and will be teaching a seminar with Patrick McCarthy in a few months. This will give me the opportunity to meet and talk with peers about what they are doing. At the seminars I will be able to see how and what they teach. It has and will spark ideas for me - it will keep me motivated. When I travel and teach seminars I get the opportunity to see how others teach, what they teach, their philosophy of teaching - all kinds of things. I encourage my students to attend seminars of other instructors and to host other instructors if they are good teachers. That gives them the opportunity to learn from others and to learn different perspectives. Or if nothing else they may learn the same thing I am teaching them but because it's from a different instructor they hear it different and so it may make sense to them. OR they may hear the same thing from them and thing - OK I guess what I am being taught is right. Do you have a professional library of martial arts books? If not why not? If you do have a library are they just on Tae Kwon Do? Why not other arts as well? Do you have books on learning theory? How about physical education? Have you read research on training methods? What are the best ways to stretch? What are the different types of stretching? How about first aid? Are you qualified to perform CPR? Why not take a Red Cross Class and learn how to be a first aid instructor? Do you know how to tape an ankle or a wrist? Can you take classes in Shiatsu or Acupuncture or something else to augment your knowledge? What about some study on the local laws and how they apply to self-defense? There is a TON of material out there you can learn about that relates to the martial arts and will increase your knowledge and skill. Bottom line for me is if you have an instructor that has been teaching the same thing over and over for the past five years they probably don't have anything else to teach. They are just as stuck as you are. The worst thing is they probably will not admit to themselves or others that they are stuck and don't know any more and are unwilling to learn so that they can teach their students more. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org >L.L --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 08:26:18 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] hapkido history Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Why is it that Gm Choi is the only person that can promote someone in Hapkido? What about his early students that popularized him and Hapkido, even tho he didn't use that name until later, and brought both to the attention of the world? In my opinion the issue is not that Doju Nim Choi was or is the only one who can promote students but that he was the only one who could promote to 7th, 8th and 9th dan while he was alive. Now that he is not with us that job would go to the 3, 9th dans Doju Nim Choi promoted to that level. GM Lim, Hyun Soo, GM Chang, Chin Il, GM Kim, Yun Sang. As far as Doju Nim Choi's early students go, they deserve credit for there hard training under rough conditions back in the early days and credit for sharing Hapkido with the world. I think the issue is when rank jumping and self promotion are ok for some but not others? I think we need to be consistant with what is proper for rank advancement! The thing to always remember is that when all is said and done, do you like your teacher? Does he teach worth while material? Do you train hard? Lineage is the starting point but hard training is the how we get to character development and personal growth. There are many people that are not qualified to call themselves Grandmaster and these are the ones that need to be called to the matt about their past training and promotions! Hapki Todd Miller Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Association www.millersmudo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest