Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:04:04 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #185 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Question for Dakin (Frank Clay) 2. Introduction (Stephen Petermann) 3. TKD Skip Dan (Ray Terry) 4. Re: Way of Life (Jye nigma) 5. RE: Friends (Rick Clark) 6. Hwa Won Yue (FirstPe315@aol.com) 7. takeda's training records (SPIVEY JR) 8. RE: Hapkido Promotions and Rank (Kevin F. Donohue) 9. Re: takeda's training records (Ray Terry) 10. hapkido history (J R Hilland) 11. Re: Hapkido Promotions and Rank (Ray Terry) 12. Re: hapkido history (Ray Terry) 13. Re: hapkido history (Ray Terry) 14. Re: Types of Belts... (jurgen lur) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 12:32:50 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Question for Dakin Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dakin, How far is Bloomington from Indy? I may find myself up that way for some work. We trained in some minor sword work when we first became yudanja. I would be interested in working on learning some new sword material. Actually, I'm sure quite a bit. f. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Stephen Petermann" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:47:36 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Introduction Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mr. Allen, Nice to meet you over the Net. I study Hapkido. My Instructor is Chong Sung Kim. My rank is 6th. My name is Stephen Petermann. My school is in San Dimas, California. Please drop in if you are in this area. Steve Who is your instructor, your rank, and where do you practice? I would like to get to know everyone better since I am new to the US and don't really know many people in here except Jere Hilland and a few others. A stranger is a friend you have never met. Jeff Allen _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD Skip Dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Noticed on the USTU website... SKIP DAN REQUIREMENTS This letter is in reference to your inquiry about Skip Dan procedures. The WTF Kukkiwon office has rules and regulations regarding these procedures. The USTU Dan office requires that all instructors follow these rules. The procedures to submit a Skip Dan application are as follows: Fill out an application for promotion and a Skip Dan form in its entirety. The Skip Dan form needs to be filled out completely. It will require detailed justification for skipping promotions and a detailed training/teaching history with dates. Please provide as much information as possible, this will help. The Skip form needs to be signed by the USTU State President of the State in which you claim as your State association. You will be required to pay for each level skipped. Example: 1st to 3rd Dan will pay for 2nd and 3rd in one form of payment. Those who want to skip more than one rank are required to take a practical test at the Kukkiwon office in Korea. Kukkiwon will only allow each individual to apply for a skip Dan once in their lifetime. Provide a copy of any current Kukkiwon certification. Example: If they are applying to skip from 2nd to 4th Dan, send a copy of the 1st and 2nd Dan certificates. Make sure the time requirements have been met between each level up to the level being requested. The applications will be returned if the time requirement has not been met. There are no exceptions for minimum time. The instructor that is submitting the application must be one Dan level above the student. The individual applying for the Skip Dan promotion must already have at least 1st Dan Kukkiwon certification. A POOM SKIP IS NOT ALLOWED. Please follow these guidelines exactly before submitting the applications. NOTE: submitting an application for a Skip Dan does not guarantee approval from the Kukkiwon Dan Board. Our office will contact you as soon as we receive the final decision from the Kukkiwon office in Korea. If there are any additional questions, please contact our office at 719-866-4632 or fax 719-866-4642. Thank you, USTU Dan Office --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 11:04:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Way of Life To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net For me, I started the martial arts at age 7, then moved on to formal training around 8 or 9 somewhere around that. I wanted to learn how to fight like in those kungfu movies. These are the thoughts of the uninformed. As I got older and met different people and studied different arts, I began to notice, some dealt with only fighting, some had more to offer, i.e., pressure points, joint destruction, cavities, meridians, herbal medicine, etc. Still wanted to "learn how to fight". As I began to learn more and more I soon noticed that I already knew how to fight since I had been fighting in the streets....Martial art schools are like culinary schools; culinary schools don't teach you how to cook....you have to already have that ability in you, they teach you technique, proper technique. The same is true with martial art schools...they teach you proper technique. So with that said, I had noticed that I could already fight but the martial arts taught me how to remain calm in a tight situation, which can be applied outside the dojang. To panic can be the end of one's life. So the many things acquired from studying the martial arts becomes a apart of you. Let me give you some real life examples..... When I'm walking in darkness, from my martial training (night "games") I learned how to "see" in the darkness by not looking directly at the object you're trying to see. I've learned to control my senses, increaseed sensitivity allows me to 'feel' the presence of someone even when I can't see or hear them. My ability to work extremely well under pressure came from the focus methods/intense concentration training I had. The ability to summon up great power from within to do something like move a very heavy object comes from chi work/science of breath in martial arts. VEry important is the knowledge to heal my body and others with food, herbs, water, accupressure, massage, etc comes partially from martial arts, then from the Bible. I've studied anatomy because of the martial arts learning to heal and kill through the martial arts as well. So those are some quick examples of how once I learned those things and continuously studied and trained in them they transformed from something I do to an extension of me. My spirituality is a way of life also, it is something that I live. When people 'do' martial arts they do it for about an hour a day, twice a week or something like that, because they plan on reaching a certain goal. I trained everyday 3 hours a day in the dojang then came home and trained additional time at home. As a result I excelled quickly and could do some 'weird' stuff, chi related when it was said that some people may never be able to move it until much later on in life (takes lifetime to master). I trained so much that martial arts and I became one. I walked different, acted different according to the skills I acquired. So how is it a lifestyle, simple, the same way you eat the way you eat, you sleep when you sleep, is because it's a part of the way you live. I wake up study my word, do some chi kung, and maybe work on some tactics, weaponry, then go on with my day. Jye Pat Montini wrote: Recently, there have been several postings as to viewing martial arts as A way of life. I have pondered that statement, and find myself very intrigued. With all due respect, I am very interested as to how the martial arts become a way of life for a person. Is it the values, discipline, respect??? Would appreciate your reflections as to how you live out this particular aspect in your life. I believe that some of the statements were made in the motivation responses, however, can anyone elaborate on it? Thank you Pat [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type text/x-vcard which had a name of pizzadp.vcf] _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Friends Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:13:28 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Rudy, > Rick writes: > > will be teaching a seminar with Patrick McCarthy in a few months. > > Hello Rick. When you see Patrick, please tell him someone out of his > Canadian past (1970's) said hello. Haven't seen Pat since he got > married and moved to Japan way back when. I understand he now resides > in Australia or New Zealand. Good man:) I'll be happy to do so. I am looking forward to co-teaching this seminar with Patrick a number of my students have hosted him for seminars and others have attended his seminars and have had positive comments. Yours, Rick Clark "Illegitimis non carborundum." ("Don't let the bastards grind you down.") -Gen. Joseph Stilwell www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 14:14:00 -0400 From: FirstPe315@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hwa Won Yue Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net GM Timmerman: Thank you for that. You know, those damn words are in my own curriculum manual. How long have I been studying Hapkido? I guess I don't use the Korean terms for these principles enough. I am a moron apparently (nobody agree please). Thanks guys for awakening me out of my fog. Jeff In a message dated 4/13/2004 12:40:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > Hello Jeff: Yu Won Wha is a basic principle taught in most Hap Ki Do > schools. Sounds like someone named his art/school after something that > can readily be found in other arts like Kuk Sool and Kong Shin Bup > without realizing that the name merely describes a common > theory. > Sincerely, > Rudy --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 11:52:48 -0700 (PDT) From: SPIVEY JR To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] takeda's training records Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I understand that Takeda's records are avaialble, Gm Choi under his given name or any of his Japanese names does not appear. Of course the Takeda family claims to have never heard of Choi nor ever had any young Korean slaves/servants/students. Do we know who has viewed the Daitoryu records? Are they available for researchers like Dr. Kimm to view and review? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- some of his records definitely exist and have been examined by at least one western researcher (stanley pranin of aiki news or aiki journal). for example, pranin has documented thru takeda's records and interviews with his son tokimune the dates that ueshiba trained in daito ryu under takeda before creating aikido. the most common suggested reason why choi does not appear in the records is that he was not japanese and was therefore not formally recognized as one of takeda's students. i have not read that the takeda family claims never to have met choi (having said that, nor have i read that they acknowledge him). would you be able to cite a source? one thing that is not in dispute is that choi was a highly skilled martial artist when he returned to korea from japan. regards, howard --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 15:00:43 -0400 From: "Kevin F. Donohue" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Promotions and Rank To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think that anyone who would study Takeda's records would have a tough time interpreting since Takeda was functionally illiterate. I even remember the Daito Ryu people stating that there were gaps (missing records) in Takeda's training record. Though many Daito Ryu people doubt the Choi / Takeda link, his records of students are a bit suspect and not as conclusive as they would seem to believe. In the book "Invincible Warrior" (John Stevens, Morihei Ueshiba respectfully paints Takeda as a great martial artist but also as a man with many faults. Choi claimed that Takeda had two households (a common thing in late 19th and early 20th century Japan) and that he served in one household. Takeda's third son Takeda Tokimune succeeded him as head of the Takeda family and soke of Daito-ryu. Takeda taught well over thirty thousand students in his lifetime. Takeda Tokimune claimed to have no knowledge of Choi but even in today's modern world, with far greater communication ability than the 1920's, we find some men who maintain two households who's children (from separate mothers) have no knowledge of each other. I think both men were telling the truth... Choi learned from Takeda (maybe others as well) but Takeda's family may never had any contact with Choi. IMHO. Choi's story remained constant. He could have claimed other prominent masters as part of his lineage...yet he never did. He could have claimed to have learned it from some mystical monk in Japan, China or Korea, yet he never did. He always claimed his art as Yawara even though many Korean's had a very anti-Japanese position in post WWII Korea. Choi also stated in interviews that he assisted Takeda in hunting down "draft" dodgers and anti-government operatives for the Japanese government in certain areas of Japan. I don't think that would have gone over very well with many Koreans after they were under Japan's occupation and their culture almost destroyed. I think Choi would have been better off claiming the mystical monk link... It would have caused less problems. Kevin F. Donohue -----Original Message----- From: Ray Terry [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 10:33 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Promotions and Rank > I personally would LOVE to have somebody publish the attendence > records for Chois' classes so that the world could see just who > studied with whom and for how long. I understand that Takeda's records are avaialble, Gm Choi under his given name or any of his Japanese names does not appear. Of course the Takeda family claims to have never heard of Choi nor ever had any young Korean slaves/servants/students. Do we know who has viewed the Daitoryu records? Are they available for researchers like Dr. Kimm to view and review? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] takeda's training records To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 12:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > some of his records definitely exist and have been examined by at least > one western researcher (stanley pranin of aiki news or aiki journal). for > example, pranin has documented thru takeda's records and interviews with > his son tokimune the dates that ueshiba trained in daito ryu under takeda > before creating aikido. > > the most common suggested reason why choi does not appear in the records > is that he was not japanese and was therefore not formally recognized > as one of takeda's students. I've heard this too. Yet we now know that other koreans are listed in Takeda's records. > i have not read that the takeda family claims never to have met choi > (having said that, nor have i read that they acknowledge him). would you > be able to cite a source? Pranin and HE Davey. Gm Choi's story of being adopted by the Takeda family is dismissed by the family as well as those familiar with the times. A japanese family would not have adopted a Korean orphan. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 14:32:38 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] hapkido history Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Not sure why my text did not send last time. Lets try it again... It was not that long ago, I remember being told that there were only a few 8th dan and even fewer 9th dan in hapkido. This was long before anyone ever heard of a 10th dan in the KMA. To watch the technique of a 5-7th dan was just a site to see, such grace and technique. It appeared so simple of an art as demonstrated by these folks. I remember training with Houston's first hapkido 8th dan after a belt test and realizing I had so much to learn, and I could never imagine that level of technique. Back then, no one knew of hapkido except for a few KMA. Now we fast forward to the year 2004, decades later, things have indeed changed, some for better, some for worse, some not at all. But the value of dan rank has changed in many, but not all organizations. Time in rank, quality of technique to some, are less important. You are still able to run into a 20 year practitioner, who is a 3rd dan, has really good technique and just wants to get on the mats, practice and have a good time. Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com <<>> --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Promotions and Rank To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 12:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Choi's story remained constant. Not exactly... e.g. he claimed to have been Takeda's second when Takeda committed suicide. Yet Takeda did not commit suicide! Unfortunately much of Gm Choi's story just doesn't jive with what we currently know. 1945 -> early 1960s there was little to no communication between Korea and Japan. This was why Gm Ji did not know that the name "Hapkido" was already in use in Japan (Aikido). Once he learned this he shortened Hapkido to just Kido, but Hapkido was already a name too well known. Or so I understand. > He could have claimed other prominent > masters as part of his lineage...yet he never did. Who else did he study with? Some have said Aikido's O'Sensei, yet he apparently claimed to never have worked with Gm Choi or seen him at any seminars (Takeda taught primarily in seminar format). Sure would be nice if Dr. Kimm would get his KMA history book published soon... :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] hapkido history To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ... Back then, no one knew of hapkido except for a few KMA. Perhaps an interesting thread here... When did folks first hear of Hapkido? For me, and I suspect several others, it was ~1971 and the movie Billy Jack. You? Ray "I just go berserk" Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] hapkido history To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > ... Back then, no one knew of hapkido except for a few KMA. > > Perhaps an interesting thread here... > > When did folks first hear of Hapkido? > > For me, and I suspect several others, it was ~1971 and the movie Billy Jack. P.S. And then it took another six years before I found a place that taught Hapkido. Ray "I still just go berserk" Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:33:45 -0700 (PDT) From: jurgen lur Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Types of Belts... To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you for your information...it helps to understand Dennis McHenry wrote:" Can somebody tell me the correct colors of a 7th Dan (Grandmaster), and a 9th Dan (Grandmaster) belt. This is in the art of Tang Soo Do. Are they black or black with a red stripe in the middle. " Like someone else already mentioned, it can vary between orgs. The most common is for 4th Dans and up to have one red stripe down the middle of their midnight blue or black belt, but I also have one that 4th and up wore that had the red stripes running along the top and bottom. I know also that GM Shin has a red and white blocked belt, and GM JJ Kim has one that is red on one whole side, and midnight blue on the other. I know other masters who don't have a stripe at all on their belts (like our own Master Charles Richards). You'll need to check with the instructors in your org. Hope this helps, Mac (I have belts with no stripes, one red, and 2 red stripes) ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest