Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 03:01:49 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #186 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Introduction (Master Allen) 2. From another group...military training. (Jye nigma) 3. skip dan (Tkdsid@aol.com) 4. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_My_Search_for_Meaning?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 5. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Searching_the_records?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 6. Re: skip dan (Ray Terry) 7. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Searching_the_records?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 8. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Searching_the_records:_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 9. Meaningful search (Ray Terry) 10. Master Jeff Allen- Hapkido (Michael D'Aloia) 11. co teaching seminars (Rudy Timmerman) 12. Yu Won Wha (Rudy Timmerman) 13. Not home (Rudy Timmerman) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Master Allen" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Introduction Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 16:52:30 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I may be out visiting family in Santa Barbara this summer. I may do that. Thanks! Master Jeff Allen Chief Instructor President-American Headquarters www.hapkiyoosool.com www.intlhapkido.com International Hapkido Federation ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen Petermann To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 1:47 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Introduction Dear Mr. Allen, Nice to meet you over the Net. I study Hapkido. My Instructor is Chong Sung Kim. My rank is 6th. My name is Stephen Petermann. My school is in San Dimas, California. Please drop in if you are in this area. Steve Who is your instructor, your rank, and where do you practice? I would like to get to know everyone better since I am new to the US and don't really know many people in here except Jere Hilland and a few others. A stranger is a friend you have never met. Jeff Allen _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page - FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:52:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] From another group...military training. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net i agree with you many of the people in my class are military reserves and they have all stated at some point and in some form that there was not enofe hand to hand combat trianing in basic and one said that to get some real training they had to become a ranger --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Tkdsid@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 16:56:32 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] skip dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Skip dan procedures- As if there isn't enough nonsense in taekwondo...as if there aren't enough people that left Korea 2nd dan and left the airplane 5th dan...as if there isn't enough corruption at hte highest levels; We can now skip a dan??????????????? I just made 2nd dan. Can I skip to 9th dan? --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 16:04:19 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_My_Search_for_Meaning?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Michael: "......According to Grandmaster Lim, Hyun Soo (http://jungkikwan.com/index.htm) Chang, Kim, and Lim himself only received 9th Dan from GM CHOI.... After closing his dojang, Founder Choi spent his remaining time at the Jung Ki Kwan with GM Lim. I believe GM Lim is an authority on this subject. GM LIM has his certificate from Choi, Yong Sool. (You can see it on his website.) I am not sure why these 3 are not recognized as contributors to Hapkido. If there are other true 9th dans in Hapkido, as you state Ray, where did they get their certification to be 9th dans in Hapkido? I suppose if one studied for numerous years under Choi, Ji, and others and start their own federation/system of Hapkido, then they become 9th dan?? If one decides to start one's own Hapkido association, then can anyone claim to be 7th, 8th, 9th or any rank? As Master Miller alluded to, there are some who self-promote and make claims. Look, there are many excellent masters/grandmasters out there teaching Hapkido. In the grand scheme of things I suppose what does it really matter what rank they are?...................." I am of the opinion that it really does matter, but I am interested in hearing from folks in WHAT WAY it does matter? Make sense? If ranks 7,8,9 and 10 do not bespeak greater technical skill what DO they bespeak? Around the edges I think I am hearing that there is a gradual funneling of power towards the top, with the guy on high having the absolute power to dictate what Hapkido is. And since there is only room at the top for one person (and their definition), everybody else, downhill from him, either has to defer to his definition or go somewhere else and open their own shop, yes? Of course that means that those new entities must have someway beyond "'cuz I said so" to validate their truths. In the absence of greater technical skill I find myself agreeing with Ray that it all comes back to politics with each person cheering for their favorite personality or educational priorities. But, then, can we actually say that we have made anything better? It seems like we have espoused a "non-competitive" MA and then simply changed the focus of competition from physical to political, yes? While I am at it, let me take ANOTHER tack. I view the rank system as a way of ordering a curriculum or a catalog of techniques. In the absence of testing requirements for each rank how is the integrity of the art maintained? OR once again is what we are talking about not the art so much but using the art as a venue to advertising one particular individual or anothers' view of the art. Once again, if this is all just stone self-serving, say, somebodys' grab at immortality what becomes of all out talk about subduing our passions and getting our ego-s under control? Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 16:08:04 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Searching_the_records?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: "......Do we know who has viewed the Daitoryu records? Are they available for researchers like Dr. Kimm to view and review?...." I understand that the records from that time frame are in the keeping of the Kodokai and they will not confirm or deny, do not want people poking in their records and would probably be very content if the rest of the Earths' population fell off the far edge of the world. We're not talk particularly "user friendly" here. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] skip dan To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 14:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ... We can now skip a dan??????????????? This is nothing new. It has been around for many years. It is just that some people are not familiar with the procedure. > I just made 2nd dan. Can I skip to 9th dan? No. When it -might- come into play is 10 years from now. You've been a 2nd Dan for 10 years, actively training in TKD all those years, but not worried about rank. You -might- be able to skip dan up to 4th if you can convince people that it is well deserved. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 16:19:12 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Searching_the_records?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Kevin: ".....the most common suggested reason why choi does not appear in the records is that he was not japanese and was therefore not formally recognized as one of takeda's students....." I understand what you are saying and there may be any number of reasons that Choi does not show up in the records. For myself I note that Stanley Pranin was able to find 9 other Koreans listed under their Korean names in the attendence ledgers. And of course there is also the matter of Jang Im Mok getting his license right out there for everyone to see. I DO remember some vague references to a kind of vacation home up in the mountains where a number of folks are said to have been sequestered away. Maybe it was a case not unlike the group of folks who studied Old Choi traditions (Lee, Seo, Ji, Kim, Suh etc.), had a falling out and went off to start their own shows. There were a lot more little knots of koreans getting together to study JMA, and I am thinking of the recent articles on the roots of TKD which sheds some light on some of this. Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 16:27:36 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Searching_the_records:_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: "......Who else did he study with? Some have said Aikido's O'Sensei, yet he apparently claimed to never have worked with Gm Choi or seen him at any seminars (Takeda taught primarily in seminar format)....." There are quite a few people such as Doshin So (Shorinji Kempo) and Mas Oyama (Kyokushin Karate) who have studied DRAJJ or at least are reported to have studied it. Oyama was Korean but I am not sure that he actually studied directly under Takeda. If Takeda was roaming all over Japan giving these seminars at inns and police stations SOMEBODY must have been learning something. Couldn't THOSE people have turned around and started teaching for money--- like Ueyshiba did? I can imagine an illiterate Choi going back to Korea and figuring that he could do in Korea what he saw some of those students do in Japan, right? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 14:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Meaningful search Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I am of the opinion that it really does matter, but I am interested in > hearing from folks in WHAT WAY it does matter? Make sense? > > If ranks 7,8,9 and 10 do not bespeak greater technical skill what DO they > bespeak? As I understand it, promotion to ranks above Nth Dan (where N = 5 or 6 or 7, depending on the style or organization) is due to contribution to the art. Not due to greater technical skill. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Michael D'Aloia" Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 21:31:37 -0400 (EDT) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Jeff Allen- Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi. I had the pleasure of meeting and working with Master Jeff Allen this evening in Oakland Park, Florida. In the a.m. I met with him and watched one of his Hapkido classes. He invited me to particpate in an open class in the evening. We had a chance to share/compare some of our Hapkido techniques. It was so nice to be able to put a face with a name in this discussion forum. I was highly impressed with his instruction and his techniques. His teacher and my teacher both studied with Choi, Yong Sool. Naturally, there were some differences, but it was very refreshing to see the numerous similarities in the techniques. If anyone is interested in studying Hapkido in the Ft.Lauderdale/Hollywood area, I would pay a visit to Master Jeff Allen's dojang in Oakland Park. You won't be disappointed. Thanks again for your hospitality Jeff! If you are ever in the New York/New Jersey area, the door is always open! Master Michael D'Aloia www.jungkihapkidoamerica.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 00:11:32 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] co teaching seminars Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick writes: > I am looking forward to co-teaching this seminar > with Patrick a number of my students have hosted him for seminars and > others > have attended his seminars and have had positive comments Hi Rick: Thanks for passing on my message. Yep, Patrick is a good man, and he used to blow away the competition around here back in the early 70s. Good man with weapons too. I am sure you will have a great experience. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 00:14:08 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Yu Won Wha Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jeff writes: > You know, those damn words are in my own curriculum manual. Hi Jeff: Please just call me Rudy. It is the norm around the DD, and it makes folks feel more like a family. We all have had lapses like that, and mine seem to come more often as I get older:( Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 00:24:54 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Not home Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello folks: I'll be away for the next two weeks (Korea), so I won't be posting for a bit. In case any of you email me, I will get back to you at the end of the month when I return. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest