Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 08:58:04 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #187 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Hapkido Ranks. (Barrie Restall) 2. Re: Way of Life (Pat Montini) 3. WTF Poomse meanings (Helstrom, Carl) 4. New Member in Auburn, AL (Patrick Baeder) 5. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_My_search_for_Meaning?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 6. Re: [The_Dojang]welcome to the new guy (Dean Lopez) 7. Re: Hello (Dean Lopez) 8. Re: New Member in Auburn, AL (masterm1) 9. Meaningful search (J R Hilland) 10. hapkido history (J R Hilland) 11. Bruce's search (Ray Terry) 12. 8th 9th 10th dan (Rick Clark) 13. Re: hapkido history (Ray Terry) 14. Re: Master Jeff Allen- Hapkido (Master Allen) 15. Re: 8th 9th 10th dan (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Barrie Restall" To: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:32:43 +1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Ranks. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi All, Lee Yong Su died in early March of this year. He received his 9th Degree certificate from DJ Choi on 1/4/84, at the same time as Dj Kim Yun Sang (they were training partners). How come no-one has mentioned Mr Lee? Does this mean we are up to 4 who received 9th degrees from Dj Choi? Or is that nobody really knows? Kind regards, Barrie Restall --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 06:27:11 -0400 From: Pat Montini To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Way of Life Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Your thoughts are most honored. I am experiencing much darkness in my life at this time and find your reflections enlightening. Thank you Pat [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type text/x-vcard which had a name of pizzadp.vcf] --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Helstrom, Carl" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 06:56:15 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] WTF Poomse meanings Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have found the meanings of the Poomse: Il Jang (heaven) through Pal Jang (earth), now I am looking for the meanings of the forms Koryo through Ilyeo. Can someone point me in the right direction? --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Patrick Baeder Organization: Auburn Academy of Martial Arts, LLC To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net CC: , Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 8:18:03 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] New Member in Auburn, AL Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Friends of the Dojang Digest, I am a new member and wanted to take a moment to introduce myself. I recently posted a message regarding the history of why the Army Rangers chose Brazilian JJ for their hand-to-hand combat training. My name is Patrick Baeder. I own and operate Auburn Academy of Martial Arts in Auburn, Alabama (www.auburnacademy.com). I hold a 4th Dan in TaeKwonDo and a 2nd Dan in HapKiDo. Previously, I trained under GM Seung Gyoo Dong (Richmond, VA) and now study under GM Julian Lim of the Korean Martial Arts Assoc. Prior to coming to Auburn, I was a U.S. Army airborne ranger qualified infantry officer and served with the 10th Mountain Division in Fort Drum, NY. I look forward to participating in the Dojang Digest. If there are any Korean martial artist that live within about 90 miles of Auburn and would like to make a connection to workout and exchange techniques, I would love to hear from you. Patrick Baeder Auburn Academy of Martial Arts 334-502-7221 www.auburnacademy.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 08:39:58 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_My_search_for_Meaning?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: ".......As I understand it, promotion to ranks above Nth Dan (where N = 5 or 6 or 7, depending on the style or organization) is due to contribution to the art. Not due to greater technical skill......." I have heard this, too. My only objection is that the term "contribution" is both highly subjective and non-specific. What exactly constitutes a "contribution". Does anyone want to make the people in Florida 8th dans because their contribution was raising our consciousness about how bad things can go when left un-monitored? Is a contribution building a network of McDochangs coast-to-coast? Is a contribution simply guarding the integrity of what was taught and passing it on, unchanged to the next generation? Is a contribution simply guarding the integrity of what is taught and passing it on--- somewhat expanded in understanding---- to the next generation? GM Ji is a 10th dan and does seminars all over the US and promotes people with considerable license. GM Chang is a 10th dan and you can't get him out of Long Island with a load of dynamite! Personaly I would love to see a list of 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th dans in Hapkido and behind their names have someone identify what it was that they "contributed" to Hapkido. Please note that I am saying specifically "Hapkido"--- not someones' organization of revenues. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 08:46:36 -0500 (CDT) From: "Dean Lopez" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: [The_Dojang]welcome to the new guy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks for the warm welcome Melinda! There seem to be some very knowledgeable posters here about their MA regarding lineage and history. I think I will learn much just from reading the 'arguments'! :) Dean > hi dean, > > welcome to the list! you're right that there have been quite a number of > hapkido related posts lately, however, the list is populated by a variety > of > students of many korean martial arts. dont let the hkd folks intimidate > you...mostly, they just fight with eachother...lol. regardless, i believe > the majority of > posters on the list have the utmost respect for one another in spite of > differing opinions. looking forward to hearing about your KSW experiences. > > take care, > melinda --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 09:19:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Hello From: "Dean Lopez" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you PSBN Richard! It's nice to know there's other KSW artists on this list, especially ones with much, much more experience than myself. I know it's a ways off still, but are you and your students planning to attend the 2004 KSW World Championship Tournament? Last year's was my first time, and had a fantastic time! Dean > Hello Dean, > > There are a few KSW people here on the group, nice to have you. > > Rich > > ____________________________________________________________________________ > > Richard Zaruba, PSBN --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "masterm1" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] New Member in Auburn, AL Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 09:56:51 -0300 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Pat Welcome to the Dojang Digest from we will all benefit from your experience Kennith Martin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Baeder" To: Cc: ; Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 9:18 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] New Member in Auburn, AL > Friends of the Dojang Digest, > > I am a new member and wanted to take a moment to introduce myself. I recently posted a message regarding the history of why the Army Rangers chose Brazilian JJ for their hand-to-hand combat training. > > My name is Patrick Baeder. I own and operate Auburn Academy of Martial Arts in Auburn, Alabama (www.auburnacademy.com). I hold a 4th Dan in TaeKwonDo and a 2nd Dan in HapKiDo. Previously, I trained under GM Seung Gyoo Dong (Richmond, VA) and now study under GM Julian Lim of the Korean Martial Arts Assoc. > > Prior to coming to Auburn, I was a U.S. Army airborne ranger qualified infantry officer and served with the 10th Mountain Division in Fort Drum, NY. > > I look forward to participating in the Dojang Digest. > > If there are any Korean martial artist that live within about 90 miles of Auburn and would like to make a connection to workout and exchange techniques, I would love to hear from you. > > Patrick Baeder > Auburn Academy of Martial Arts > 334-502-7221 > www.auburnacademy.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 10:23:16 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Meaningful search Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Unfortunately that is true in some organizations, but student rank at ANY level should be based on ones time in rank and quality of technique. Fortunately, there are still organizations out there that value these qualities. Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com <<>> --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 10:23:19 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] hapkido history Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I like that. People claiming instructors they do not know the names of is obviously suspect. It was honorable of Choi Young Sul to simply state the facts about the creation of hapkido, knowing the problems with the documentation. When I first started hapkido we were told the Choi studied in the "mountains". Master Myung Kwan Sik, the head of the WHF even said that in his first book. I was first told around 1979 (my teacher finally admitted the that the "away in the mountains" was fictional) that there was a Japanese connection to hapkido. But we, the students, really had to ask a lot of questions to get a few answers as our teacher then was not comfortable discussing the time of the Japanese occupation for obvious reasons. Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com <<>> --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 07:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce's search Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ".......As I understand it, promotion to ranks above Nth Dan (where N = 5 > or 6 or 7, > depending on the style or organization) is due to contribution to the art. > Not due to greater technical skill......." > > I have heard this, too. My only objection is that the term "contribution" > is both highly subjective and non-specific. What exactly constitutes > a "contribution". Simple... Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It will vary, and perhaps greatly, from group/org to group/org. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Rick Clark" To: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:05:11 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] 8th 9th 10th dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net There have been a number of posts about ranks and the meaning of ranks of 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th dan. I thought I might post a few thoughts I have on the matter and perhaps offer a bit of a different perspective. On the matter of 10th dan in KMA I can remember when I started to see Super Duper Supreme Grand Masters put out adverts with 10th dan behind their name. I was taken aback because I had been taught in the KMA we started with 9th kup and went to 9th dan the KMA did not use 10th kyu to 10th dan ranks. So to me this was a way some of the upper ranks could put their ranks on the same level as those of the Japanese and Okinawan martial arts. I have had KMA instructors tell me that a 1st dan in KMA would be a "higher" rank than a 1st dan in Japanese arts because the KMA went from 9 to 9 and the Japanese went from 10 to 10. My B.S. detector flashed hard and fast on that one, but I could see there was a definite defensiveness on their part because they may have been a 5th dan and the Japanese instructor down the road was a 6th dan (fill in the ranks of your choice). So IMHO the KMA went to using a 10th dan for marketing purposes. Which brings me to some of my next comments. Back in the 60's there were not that many 5th dan instructors in the US. Many if not most instructors were ex-GI's who came back from Japan, Korea, or Okinawa with a 1st or 2nd dan and opened a school. They would have received their rank in a 12 months and if they did a second tour of duty in the Orient they could have reached 2nd dan, higher rank if they were there longer. As most organizations have a requirement that you be 2 ranks higher than the person you promote; as a 1st dan they would not have been able to promote someone to 1st dan - 2nd kup/kyu would have been the highest rank they could have promoted. So, someone would take 3 or more years to grade to 1st dan under this ex-GI because it would take them a 3,4, 5, or more years to get to 3rd dan. The person who was required to train for such an extended period of time would have had some natural resentment if a new white belt would have come into the club and would have been able to test to 1st dan in 12 months (the same as the instructor). So time in grade requirements became a norm and it was not unusual for a person to take 3 or more years to grade to 1st dan - where in the Orient it would have taken only 12 months. In addition with the advent of the commercial schools it was in the interest of the school owner to test students for each rank and to keep them in classes for 3 or more years as this would increase their revenue. ATA (I am told) even went to a marketing agency to find out what color belt would be most appealing to kids. This was time when GI Joe was a popular toy - thus the birth of the Camouflage belt. Now as instructors got the higher ranks they became protective of their ability to promote students because this could generate testing fees for them and help pay the overhead of their schools or association or to make a living. It was in the financial interest for the heads of schools and groups to have higher ranks and to keep students in lower ranks and thus subservient to them AND it gave the head instructors power and authority over the under ranked instructors. As time went by you would see disgruntled 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th dans break away from instructors or groups that abused the rank system and testing fees. Test fees can be the profit for a smaller school, yet if a senior instructor is taking the lion's share of the fees it may be very hard for a small school to stay in business. Or it may not be worth the effort for a lower rank to teach a class, they might be better of taking class. But then this lowers the numbers for the association. With lower numbers for an association it's harder for the chief instructor to run tournaments - which have been a way to make some rather good money. Also, lower numbers in the association would mean lower fees for the association thus less money for the head of the group. As these instructors would break away you would find that they would need to be higher ranks to promote their students. So you might find such instructors grouping together to promote themselves to higher ranks. This has been a well established practice in the Orient and the Occidental instructors could argue they are doing the same thing their Super Duper Grand Master had done. Just think of the original heads of the Kwans. Some were ranked in Shotokan, yet by the 50's they were 9th dan. Who promoted them? How long was their time in grade requirements? All along the general public was beginning to learn that higher ranks = better teachers. So how long do you think it took for people to self-promote, seek out promotions or get them by hook or crook? If Joe Blow down the road was a 5th dan then because "I" am a better instructor and have been in the martial arts longer I should be at least a "6th dan". So . . . . . a diploma mill or my local printer can take care of that. Well the guy down the road sees I am a 6th dan so he has to be a 6th dan. So he changes associations and tells the head he can bring so many students to their organization (read more test fees, association fees, bodies at tournaments) but it sure would be nice to be a 6th dan, after all my competition is a 6th dan and he may get more students because he can advertise he is a 6th dan and I am only a 5th. So it does not take a genius to figure out that if you have a couple of schools and several hundred students you can jump from organization to organization and increase your rank each time. Rank today serves several purposes: 1) Advertising 2) A way to maintain power or control 3) Marketing 4) It "may" give you some general idea of the knowledge, skill, ability, etc. of the individual. BUT it's not a guarantee, that's for sure. 5) fill in your own reasons for rank or the lack of rank :-) This is such an interesting topic and it can have so many points of view. Some folks who are new in the martial arts might not think of, others who have been in the martial arts a long time may not want to voice some opinions. It can be a real hot potato of a topic :-) Sorry about being a bit long winded . . . . . . Rick Clark "Illegitimis non carborundum." ("Don't let the bastards grind you down.") -Gen. Joseph Stilwell www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] hapkido history To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 09:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I like that. People claiming instructors they do not know the names of is > obviously suspect. It was honorable of Choi Young Sul to simply state the > facts about the creation of hapkido, knowing the problems with the > documentation. Granted, he was right to claim his yawara came from Japan and Aiki-Jujutsu. But then Lee Won-kuk predates Choi with his open admission that his kwan's Tang Soo Do was Japan's Karate-do. Choi may not have been aware of that, however, given the Korea of the mid to late 1940s. But one wonders if we'll ever learn how Choi actually came by his knowledge. Unless, that is, Dr. Kimm has finally solved that riddle and gives the answer in his new book. :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com P.S. fwiw, I don't recall the names of my first two martial arts instructors. All I recall about my first instructor(1969) is that he was from New York, not sure if state or city, and that he was grad student at Ohio State. My second instructor's name was Randy(1973), that is all I know. Names may fade with time, but I can still see their faces. --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Master Allen" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Master Jeff Allen- Hapkido Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:28:22 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mike, It was a pleasure working with you. I can definitely tell our instructors learned from the same man. No Doubt. Thank you for the nice compliments, right back at ya! Good stuff. I like to see our instructors personalities coming out in the difference of the technique. It was really great Mike, Let's do it again! If anyone would like to come down and train, you are more than welcome. Really. ^_^ Master Jeff Allen Chief Instructor President-American Headquarters www.hapkiyoosool.com www.intlhapkido.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael D'Aloia To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 9:31 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Jeff Allen- Hapkido Hi. I had the pleasure of meeting and working with Master Jeff Allen this evening in Oakland Park, Florida. In the a.m. I met with him and watched one of his Hapkido classes. He invited me to particpate in an open class in the evening. We had a chance to share/compare some of our Hapkido techniques. It was so nice to be able to put a face with a name in this discussion forum. I was highly impressed with his instruction and his techniques. His teacher and my teacher both studied with Choi, Yong Sool. Naturally, there were some differences, but it was very refreshing to see the numerous similarities in the techniques. If anyone is interested in studying Hapkido in the Ft.Lauderdale/Hollywood area, I would pay a visit to Master Jeff Allen's dojang in Oakland Park. You won't be disappointed. Thanks again for your hospitality Jeff! If you are ever in the New York/New Jersey area, the door is always open! Master Michael D'Aloia www.jungkihapkidoamerica.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 15 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 8th 9th 10th dan To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 09:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > On the matter of 10th dan in KMA I can remember when I started to see Super > Duper Supreme Grand Masters put out adverts with 10th dan behind their name. > I was taken aback because I had been taught in the KMA we started with 9th > kup and went to 9th dan the KMA did not use 10th kyu to 10th dan ranks. So > to me this was a way some of the upper ranks could put their ranks on the > same level as those of the Japanese and Okinawan martial arts. I have had > KMA instructors tell me that a 1st dan in KMA would be a "higher" rank than > a 1st dan in Japanese arts because the KMA went from 9 to 9 and the Japanese > went from 10 to 10. My B.S. detector flashed hard and fast on that one, but > I could see there was a definite defensiveness on their part because they > may have been a 5th dan and the Japanese instructor down the road was a 6th > dan (fill in the ranks of your choice). So IMHO the KMA went to using a > 10th dan for marketing purposes. On the topic of 10th Dans in the KMA... Who do we think was the first legit KMAer to claim the rank of 10th Dan or be promoted to that rank? I personally first noticed that rank being used by the WHF's Kwang Sil Myung. Gm Ji was promoted to 10th by, I believe, the IHF, but I don't recall the date. I have always wondered if Gm Myung was the first to claim 10th. ??? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest