Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 18:11:05 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #188 - 16 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: WTF Poomse meanings (Ray Terry) 2. RE: 8th 9th 10th dan (Master Mark Seidel) 3. 8th 9th 10th dan (J R Hilland) 4. WTF poomsae meaning (Ray Terry) 5. Re: 8th 9th 10th dan (Ray Terry) 6. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_New_Member_in_Alabama?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 7. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Mountains_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 8. Introduction (Diana Fales) 9. MARTIAL ARTS A WAY OF LIFE (Richard Tomlinson) 10. SAME TECHNIQUES OVER (Richard Tomlinson) 11. Mountains (Ray Terry) 12. Sanshin (Ray Terry) 13. Re: Hapkido Ranks. (Ray Terry) 14. Lee Yong Su (Amed Hazel) 15. Bruce's search (George Peters) 16. Re: Re: New Member in Alabama (Patrick Baeder) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] WTF Poomse meanings To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 09:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I have found the meanings of the Poomse: Il Jang (heaven) through Pal Jang > (earth), now I am looking for the meanings of the forms Koryo through Ilyeo. > Can someone point me in the right direction? The meanings are given in the Kukkiwon's TKD Textbook; Kuk-Ki Taekwondo Text Book. They may also be up on the kukkiwon website. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Master Mark Seidel" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] 8th 9th 10th dan Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:09:05 -0400 Organization: The Midtown Academy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray, I thought 10th Dan was an honor bestowed upon 9th Dan's that have passed away. Mark Master Mark Seidel Martial Arts /PE Program The Midtown Academy http://www.midtownacademy.org -----Original Message----- From: Ray Terry [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 12:31 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 8th 9th 10th dan > On the matter of 10th dan in KMA I can remember when I started to see Super > Duper Supreme Grand Masters put out adverts with 10th dan behind their name. > I was taken aback because I had been taught in the KMA we started with 9th > kup and went to 9th dan the KMA did not use 10th kyu to 10th dan ranks. So > to me this was a way some of the upper ranks could put their ranks on the > same level as those of the Japanese and Okinawan martial arts. I have had > KMA instructors tell me that a 1st dan in KMA would be a "higher" rank than > a 1st dan in Japanese arts because the KMA went from 9 to 9 and the Japanese > went from 10 to 10. My B.S. detector flashed hard and fast on that one, but > I could see there was a definite defensiveness on their part because they > may have been a 5th dan and the Japanese instructor down the road was a 6th > dan (fill in the ranks of your choice). So IMHO the KMA went to using a > 10th dan for marketing purposes. On the topic of 10th Dans in the KMA... Who do we think was the first legit KMAer to claim the rank of 10th Dan or be promoted to that rank? I personally first noticed that rank being used by the WHF's Kwang Sil Myung. Gm Ji was promoted to 10th by, I believe, the IHF, but I don't recall the date. I have always wondered if Gm Myung was the first to claim 10th. ??? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:09:58 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] 8th 9th 10th dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The first I also heard of this was Master Myung Kwan Sik. Then years later organizations they did not even belong with started offering them 10th dan certificates to back up the claims. My first instructor told me the same story Rick wrote below. I was also told that dan rank was a student rank, note this does not mean political rank, etc. As for the rest of Rick's theory of the cause and effect on why the current belt system has been abused is sadly true. I return to my original statement that; time in rank, and quality of technique should be the guidelines for all dan ranking. If we start to remember that we are all students, regardless of rank, we would be ok. Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com <> --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 10:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] WTF poomsae meaning Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Found this in the list archives... Ray ==================================================================== From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:25:37 PST Subject: the_dojang: KTA info Taked from the KTA's website, http://www.koreataekwondo.org. Taekwondo Poomsae is meant by a "Form" in which a self-practice is devised to be performed in following the lines of movement in a systematic and consecutive way against an imaginary opponent or multi-opponents by using various Taekwondo technics of hand and foot. Through practising Taekwondo Poomsae, we can apply the technics of hand and foot and the changes of stance learned from the basic technics adaptably to an actual fighting. It also provides us with the effection improving flexibility of body and being skilled in strength control, balance control, breath control, eye control and concentration of spirit, as well as cultivating martial art spirit through its mental discipline. A taekwondo 'Poomsae' comprises various stance, each with its peculiar nature but each blending into the other. A 'poomsae' consists of about two dozen stances interconnected. Blocking, punching, striking, thrusting and kicking are among Taekwondo Poomsae, and these are properly carried out with hands, fists and feet to the vital sport of the body or target at which they aimed, and the stances accordingly chnge forward stance, back stance, cat stance and horseriding stance, etc. as the situation requires. Most typical 'Poomsae' are Palgwe I-VIII, Taeguk I-VIII, koryo, Kumgang, Taeback, Pyongwon, Shipjin, Jitae, Chunkwon, Hansoo and Ilyeo. Meaning of each Poomsae: TAEGUK : This represents the most profound oriental philosophy from which philosophical views on the world, cosmos and life are derived. The Taeguk Poomsae consists of different movements in sequence. The vital points of this Poomsae are to make exact the speed of breath and action and move the body weight properly while executing speedy actions. Thus we can fully realize the main thought of Taeguk. PALGWE : Supplementary Training. The thought of Palgwe, another concept of the ancient Oriental Philosophy, implies symbolically all the phenomena of man and universe. KORYO : Koryo is the name of an ancient dynasty in the Korean peninsula. The English name of "Korea" originated from the name of this "Koryo" dynasty with which was famed for the valiant spirit of its people which they defeated the Mongolian aggression. Koryo Poomsae is based on spirit of / sonbae(Sonbi) which was inherited from Koruryo to Balhae and to Koryo. Songae means strong martial art and honest spirit of scholars. KUMGANG : The word "Kumgang" has originally the meaning of being too strong to be broken. Also in Buddhism, what can break off every agony of mind with combination of wisdom and virtue is called "Kumgang". The Poomsae "Kumgang" is named after Mount Kumgang, symbol of solidity. "kumgan"is also anlogous of "diamond". TAEBACK : "Taeback" is the ancient name of Mount Paekdu where the legendary Tangun founded a nation for the first time in the Korean peninsula 4,329 years ago on Tangun calendar (1996 A.D.=4329 Tangun year). Poomsae "Taeback" takes its principles of movement from the word "Taeback" which means being looked up to as sacred. PYONGWON : "Pyongwon" is meant by 'vast plain'. The plain is a source of sustaining the human life and, on the other hand, a great open plain stretching out endlessly gives us a feeling of majesty that is different from what we feel with a mountain or the sea. An application of the providence of the plain which is blessed with abundance and grace as well as boundless vastness into the practice of Taekwondo is Poomse Pyongwon (plain). SHIPJIN : Shipjin has the meaning of 'decimal system' which stands for a symbolical figure of 10 meaning endless development and growth in a systematic order. In Poomse shipjin, stability is sought in every chnage of movements. JITAE : According to the oriental belief, all living things come from and return to the earth(Jitae is derived from the meaning of the earth). The earth is indeed the orining and terminal of life. Living things as well as all the natural phenomena of the earth Poomsae "Jitae" is the movement which supplies these features of the earth. CHUNKWON : Chunkown" signifies the sky. From ancient times the orientals have always believed and worshiped the sky as ruler of the universe and human beings. The infinitely vast sky may be a mysterious and profound world of imagination in the eyes of finite human beings. Poomsae Chunkwon is composed of the motions which are full of piery and vitality. HANSOO : Poomsae "hansoo" derived from the word 'water' is typical with its fluidity and adaptability as manifested in the nature of water. ILYEO : "Ilyeo" signifies oneness. In buddhism the state of spiritual cultivation is said to be "Ilyeo"(oneness), in which body and mind, I(subject) and you(object), spirit and substance are unified into oneness. The ultimate ideal of Taekwondo lies in this state of Ilyeo. The final goal Taekwondo pursues is indeed a discipline in which we concentrate attention pursues is indeed a discipline in which we concentrate attention on every movement, shaking off all worldly thoughts and obsessions. KTA OLYMPIC PARK 88-2, ORYUN-DONG, SONGPA-GU SEOUL, KOREA Tel:(02)420-4271 A-3 Fax:(02)420-4274 --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 8th 9th 10th dan To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 10:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I thought 10th Dan was an honor bestowed upon 9th Dan's that have passed > away. Yep, that was always the party line. But this has changed in some orgs over time. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:58:55 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_New_Member_in_Alabama?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Patrick: ' ".....Previously, I trained under GM Seung Gyoo Dong (Richmond, VA) and now study under GM Julian Lim of the Korean Martial Arts Assoc....." I am really surprised that you are training under a person all the way in Malaysia. Are we talking about the same Julian Lim? For myself I would have gone across the border into Miss. and checked out JR's school. Mike Tomlinson knows of things in Florida and Fabian is trying to get things going with the KHF there as well. How did you manage to tie into Julian? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:13:20 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Mountains_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jere: "......When I first started hapkido we were told the Choi studied in the "mountains". Master Myung Kwang Sik, the head of the WHF even said that in his first book. I was first told around 1979 (my teacher finally admitted the that the "away in the mountains" was fictional) that there was a Japanese connection to hapkido........" For a long time I always wondered what this thing about the mountains was. I figured that it must be because there are so few people up there and a guy could just about come-up with anything he cared to. I have recently heard about a book by David A Mason (SPIRIT OF THE MOUNTAINS) publ by Hollym that speaks to this belief system in Korean culture. I think its called "sanshinism" but don't quote me on that. Anyhow, the idea is that mountain as icon, represents a particular archetype in Korean culture but I'll have to read the book to get the rest of this. FWIW. BTW: The Japanese have the same hang-up --er--- belief system regarding Shinto. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Diana Fales" To: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:03:12 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Introduction Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Allen (and other list members), I just joined this list, so I found it fitting to respond to your request for introductions as my first post! I've began studying Tae Kwon Do only one month ago, so I'm a white belt. My almost-6 year old son started a month or so before me, and I felt compelled to begin myself, for many reasons. We train at Tiger Martial Arts Academy in Manassas, Virginia under the school owner, Master Young Joo Kim, 5th dan, Master Kyung-Soo Lee, 5th dan, and Master Yoo (don't know his full name, he's very new), who is 5th dan TKD and 2nd dan HKD. All three are Yong-In graduates, and Master Kim was a member of the Korean Tigers demo team, so I feel very fortunate that my son and I are able to learn from these very talented and dedicated practioners. A little bit more about us.I am a 33 year old mom of two young boys (almost six and almost 3). DH and I will celebrate our ten year anniversary this December. We wanted to get our oldest involved in some type of non-team activity this past winter. And we wanted something that would be more than just a winter activity, something that would benefit him in more than just a physical way. His uncle is a 3rd dan in TKD, so we thought that might be a good option.well, our son was totally against the idea at first, saying through tears, "I don't want to learn to play that game." After some convincing that it's not a "game", there was no team, and it's not about winning or losing, he agreed to get some books and talk to Uncle Geoff before writing if off right away. Needless to say, after the first two lessons, he was hooked. He's really focused when he's there (it hasn't translated to the home yet, but hey, he's not quite 6 yet!), pays attention, is very respectful, and doesn't goof off, even when some of the other kids his age are. It makes me extremely proud, and eager to see what the progression will bring as the months and years go by. As far as myself, the initial motivation was to solve the quandary of how we were going to be able to help him practice at home if neither of us had a clue what he was learning. From there, it has evolved to more of an inner exploration of myself.I've never been much of a goal setter, and focus, discipline and "balance" in life does not come easily for me. If you asked me six months ago if I would ever think about training in a martial art, I would have said "no", but now that I have begun this journey, I can't imagine my life without it. In such a short period of time, it has brought such a feeling of strength and power, along with feelings of both calm and exhilaration at the same time. It's like finding a cool drink of water after hiking through the desert. I look forward to each lesson immensely, and I would train more than three days a week if I had the spare time and if the body didn't need to recover. I don't see this as a short-term activity, but a new path for my life. I look forward to being a member here and to learning more from those of you on this list.I'm usually more of a reader than a poster, so hopefully that's not a problem! Diana F. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Richard Tomlinson" To: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:42:06 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] MARTIAL ARTS A WAY OF LIFE Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In my TKD school we say "Taekwon Do is an unarmed martial art. It is not only kicking and punching but also a way of thinking and living. The main goal of Taekwon Do is to achieve total mind and body control through training." Five and a half years in, going soon for second dan... it has become a way of life, a way of thinking. If you follow a true martial art and it's path. this will naturaly evolve. sandy --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Richard Tomlinson" To: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:49:15 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] SAME TECHNIQUES OVER Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I dont want to pass any judgement on the school or instructor.... techniques must be repeated over and over again... but by first dan in our school one must have back kicks, jumping back kicks, tornado kicks, spinning kicks, flying side kick punches, flying back side kick, triple snap....... and more. And hand techniques... lots of them. The beauty of getting first dan is working now on trying to improve on them by second dan... ect. Plus combining more foot and hand technique combinations... oh and forms... it never ends! sandy --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:41:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Mountains Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > recently heard about a book by David A Mason (SPIRIT OF THE MOUNTAINS) > publ by Hollym that speaks to this belief system in Korean culture. I > think its called "sanshinism" but don't quote me on that. Anyhow, the > idea is that mountain as icon, represents a particular archetype in > Korean culture but I'll have to read the book to get the rest of this. http://www.san-shin.org Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:47:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Sanshin Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Spirit of the Mountains (Korea's SAN-SHIN and Traditions of Mountain Worship) David A Mason Korea is a nation of many religions: Buddhism, Christianity, and many other minor religions. Shamanism, Confucianism and Taoism are also widely practiced, although they are not regarded as religions. There is another system of beliefs that is respected by many Koreans, consciously or unconsciously. It's called Sanshinism. The shrines of Sanshin, a divine creature believed to haunt mountains, are mostly located at Buddhist temples, according to this book by a U.S. scholar. Sanshinism has a very strong streak of Taoism in that the half-human, half-divine being is believed to live only in remote, deep mountains and can be considered a nature lover. The personified mountain spirit can be a female or a male but the male Sanshin is more usual with his long beard and a cane in his hand, accompanied by a tiger. The book provides very thorough information about Sanshin and Sanshinism: the levels of Sanshin, where Sanshin resides, plants and animals in the background of Sanshin paintings, and Sanshin's influence on Korea's religious traditions. An interesting point made in the book is that Sanshin is closely related to other traditional supernatural beings respected by Koreans such as Yong Wang (Dragon King), Deok Seong (the Lonely Saint), Chil Seong (Seven Stars), and Jesok (Emperor Mighty). With Sanshin as the main subject, the book presents all kinds of relevant and interesting facts that would not have otherwise been available to English speakers. The author, David Masdon, has lived in Korea for nearly 20 years and earned his Masters in Korean Studies at Yonsei University. For more detailed information about Sanshin, please go to the author's Web site (www.san-shin.org). --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Ranks. To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Lee Yong Su died in early March of this year. He received his 9th Degree > certificate from DJ Choi on 1/4/84, at the same time as Dj Kim Yun Sang (they > were training partners). How come no-one has mentioned Mr Lee? Does this mean > we are up to 4 who received 9th degrees from Dj Choi? Interesting... Tell us more of Gm Lee Yong Su. Website? Do you know when he started his training with Gm Choi? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Amed Hazel" To: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 18:24:10 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Lee Yong Su Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Lee Yong Su died in early March of this year. He received his 9th Degree certificate from DJ Choi on 1/4/84, at the same time as Dj Kim Yun Sang (they were training partners). How come no-one has mentioned Mr Lee? Does this mean we are up to 4 who received 9th degrees from Dj Choi? Or is that nobody really knows? Kind regards, Barrie Restall Does anyone else know this gentleman? Is there any pictures of him or his certificate? --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 18:33:03 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce's search Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, In reading your post,it confuses me on what is said about higher Dan rank not denoting a higher level of skill. Granted that all people vary in abilities and very high rank usually comes with an advancing age, the seniors I have had the privilige of working with are not indicative of what you say. There is a heck of a difference between the skills of a Sa-Dan and the skills of an O-Dan, at least the ones I know, and these differences are also reflected in the higher ranks. I had always assumed that this was the norm, as" does the light not become brighter as one travels up the mountain out of the valley"? Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ Tax headache? MSN Money provides relief with tax tips, tools, IRS forms and more! http://moneycentral.msn.com/tax/workshop/welcome.asp --__--__-- Message: 16 From: Patrick Baeder Organization: Auburn Academy of Martial Arts, LLC To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: New Member in Alabama Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 20:46:07 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, The short story is that I hooked up with GM Lim through Frank Clay. GM Lim was here for a seminar and I was fortunate enough to spend 5 days with him. We are currently working on a schedule where I will visit him in Malaysia annually to suppliment his annual trips here to AL. I have heard great things about GM West's operation in Miss. from Master Charles Richards in GA. Thanks, Patrick From: Date: 2004/04/14 Wed PM 01:58:55 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: New Member in Alabama Dear Patrick: ' ".....Previously, I trained under GM Seung Gyoo Dong (Richmond, VA) and now study under GM Julian Lim of the Korean Martial Arts Assoc....." I am really surprised that you are training under a person all the way in Malaysia. Are we talking about the same Julian Lim? For myself I would have gone across the border into Miss. and checked out JR's school. Mike Tomlinson knows of things in Florida and Fabian is trying to get things going with the KHF there as well. How did you manage to tie into Julian? Best Wishes, Bruce _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Patrick Baeder Auburn Academy of Martial Arts 334-502-7221 www.auburnacademy.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest