Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 08:28:05 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #197 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: "that technique does not work" (jeffrey kiral) 2. Hi to all (william smith) 3. that doesn't work? (michael tomlinson) 4. Aloha! (Michael Rowe) 5. when a popular instructor leaves (Diana Fales) 6. Muay Thai vs Taekwondo (David Weller) 7. One year black belt (Charles Richards) 8. Re: "that technique does not work" (Dean Lopez) 9. hapkido: how much time needed for proficiency: (SPIVEY JR) 10. Hapkido - Curriculum (Michael D'Aloia) 11. Hapkido In SC? (Woodard Brian (ChW/TEF8)) 12. TSD Black Belt Class (Charles Richards) 13. RE: "that technique does not work" (Stovall, Craig) 14. Re: Hapkido - Curriculum (Ray Terry) 15. KHF Ranking.... (Master Arce) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "jeffrey kiral" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] "that technique does not work" Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 00:57:42 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net no, i wouldn't say...completely... a realistic self defense situation happens very rapidly...i can personally attest to that fact....it does take alot of study and ALOT of practice before those techniques become second nature in order for them to just happen at the right time. i do see what you are saying, but that statement can be said about any martial art or self defense program...sure you will pick up on something that can come in handy, but to have it be a part of you in order for it to flow takes more than a year of study...not just in HKD but any martial system. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Terry" To: Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 8:43 PM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] "that technique does not work" > > How did "mastery of Hapkido" come into play here?!? Do you really believe > one must master the art of Hapkido before it is useful in a self-defense > situation? > > One is typically able to use HKD in self-defense situations well before > they have completely mastered the art. Wouldn't you say??? > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "william smith" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:11:45 +1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hi to all Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi, I am William Smith, a recent subscriber to the dojang digest. I am young at 13 and do a specific form of Taekwon-do in Australia - Rhee Taekwon-do. I have studied the art for a year and a half and am currently a 5th grade (or green belt blue tip) and was wondering if there is anybody here that lives in Australia and studies this art? Just recently my dojang got shut down because of funding and as there are no other schools around I am thinking of switching to Hapkido, but seeing as i don't know much about the art i was wondering if anybody could give me some info about it? Any help would be greatly appreciated! William Smith. _________________________________________________________________ Personalise your mobile chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 12:09:45 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] that doesn't work? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net IMHO about 90 percent of the techniques that people can't get to work in Hapkido involves some wrong stepping.. in Sin Moo Doju Nim Ji talks about the stepping and first movement as being the defining moment.. if your basic movement is right it transfers your body power to the right area... some basic steps we do depending on the technique involved are ,, triangle step,, short x step,, deep x step,, and kiss toes.... there are a few more but these four involve the majority of your first movement... by doing the correct step things seem to get easier and you don't need much strength or time... Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 07:11:37 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Aloha! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Aloha! Been spending a great two weeks down in Hawai'i. Tried to look up everybody's old friend (LOL) but to no avail could not find him. Have spent some great time working with some military defensive tactics instructors down here near Scholfield Barracks, Perl Harbor, and Kunia. It has been wonderful, but I have to return to Nebraska soon. Michael Rowe NSGA Kunia The Silent Sentinels --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Diana Fales" To: Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 08:35:40 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] when a popular instructor leaves Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi all, Just wondering if it's customary for a school's owner/instructors to be secretive about details when another popular instructor leaves. At our school, a very popular instructor will be leaving (or has already left, he's hasn't been there for a week) at the end of this month to pursue opening his own school. Because of normal issues involved with opening a new school (finding a location, working out leasing details, design, construction, marketing, etc.) this will realistically take 6 months, maybe longer. Unless this is a custom-related issue, it would seem that our current school owner feels threatened that he will lose students when the popular instructor finally does open his school. There was no word/warning about his departure, and all other instructors have a pretty standard "smile-on-my-face-and-darting-looks-around-the-dojang-says-I-know-more-t han-I-can-let-on-so-I-ll-just-say "I don't know anything" answer if you ask for details. To me, and to many other students, this comes off as very shady and deceptive.what would be so bad about saying reality, something along the lines of, hey, we're really glad for the time he's spent here, we know many of you will be sad to learn he's leaving and we're sad to see him go, but best of luck, etc., etc. I chose this school based on this particular instructor, and I would love to stay under his direction and training, but the reality is that I have a contract, and this new school is a ways off from coming to fruition. This whole secretive air of mystery and rumor floating around just doesn't leave a good feeling, though, because no one will give a straight answer. Am I just deluded or is this normal/customary? Thanks, Diana Fales --__--__-- Message: 6 From: David Weller Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 07:54:12 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Muay Thai vs Taekwondo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just watched a short video from the Muay Thai association of Finland. Titled Muay Thai VS Taekwondo. I tried the web site listed on the video but it's just not available, the video is something I "just ended up with". About a minute and a half of fighting. As a Taekwondo practitioner, all I can say is "ouch." TKD guy got beat up pretty bad ... typical modern TKD tournament fighter; hands down, bouncing around. MT guy walks in on him, hand up and starts punching. TKD guy tries to throw some of those pretty, fast high kicks ... boom..MT guy cuts his legs out from under him every time with round kicks to the hamstring or inner thigh ... ouch again. Love to share the video, but it's 11.5 MB and the web site for the assoc. is foo-barr ... email if you want a copy and have the bandwidth to handle it.. Dave Weller --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 06:26:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] One year black belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My good friends, A little math from the engineer martial artist. My students take from 3-5 years to earn a Cho Dan so at twice a week average thats 300 to 500 class hours. I can assure you that the years may vary from 3-5, but the class hours will be over 400. A former Hapkido org I was in had Gup requirements including total hours of training. Yellow Belt was like 20 hours and Cho Dan was like 450 to 500 hours. So the one year black belt is mathematically possible at 6 days per week 2 hours (or more) class for about 600 hours in one year. Or 300 classes (regardless of class time). IMHO if the cirricula and instructor are good then after 400-600 hours the Cho Dan will be good, and if the instructor and/or cirricula are weak....well.... Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 08:45:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] "that technique does not work" From: "Dean Lopez" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think that earns a big "it depends". :) I think you are right to a degree. While I cannot comment on Hapkido techniqes, there are some techniques in Kuk Sool Won that white belt students learn, and which are pretty easy to "master", but would that white belt student be truly capable of employing that technique in a real life self-defense situation, even after a year of practicing? In contrast, a black belt student learning a new technique would probably master it in not even half the time the white belt student would take to master a more simpler, basic technique. And then there is the possibility that none of the few techniques "mastered" in one year are the appropriate defense against a particular attack. I think these are but a few of the reasons why many would feel it take years to become proficient enough with the techniques to be able to effectively employ them against a real-life attacker. Dean > How did "mastery of Hapkido" come into play here?!? Do you really believe > one must master the art of Hapkido before it is useful in a self-defense > situation? > > One is typically able to use HKD in self-defense situations well before > they have completely mastered the art. Wouldn't you say??? > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 07:05:33 -0700 (PDT) From: SPIVEY JR To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] hapkido: how much time needed for proficiency: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ray, you mention that you think a year is enough time to get to the point of being able to use hapkido techniques in a self-defense situation. sorry, but i'm skeptical. i certainly wasn't ready to defend myself against a full-force attack at that point, and i haven't run across many students who seem to be... just to be clear, i'm referring to a realistic attack that you might expect in the street (punch, choke, strike with a stick, whatever - full force attacker bent on hurting you), not the compliant wrist grabs that we all use when we are first learning the techniques. regards, howard --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Michael D'Aloia" Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 10:22:01 -0400 (EDT) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido - Curriculum Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > "I always hate to hear that does not work after someone has done a technique a few times or even for a few years. This shows lack of patience." > > i couldn't agree more. to get good enough at traditional hapkido techniques to be able to use them in realistic self-defense situations takes years. not many students have the patience it takes to stick around that long. > Ray Terry stated, .."It takes years? I've heard this said about Aikido, but not Hapkido. It might take a year (assuming a few times a week at class), but not much more. " In Korea, it usually takes a year to get 1st dan. However, the training is daily and part of the student's everyday routine. What is a few times a week? 3, 4, 5, 6, 7? I think becoming proficient at Hapkido techniques depends on many factors: the individual's ability to understand and excute techniques which varies from person to person- some people take longer to get it! the amount of time one puts in each week (In the U.S. work, family, other committments, etc. may limit one's schedule.) the instructional ability of one's teacher- not every black belt/master is a good instructor what techniques are being taught - Are they true "HAPKIDO" techniques or basic self defense techniques called HAPKIDO. I have had Americans who have trained and obtained Hapkido 1st dan in Korea walk into my dojang and their technique had much to be desired! Of course, this is a small sampling and could have just been a fluke. I believe it takes years to fully understand the intricacies and the workings of many Hapkido techniques. It takes time, hard work and practice to be able to excute many of the techniques in a self defense application. Applying techniques off grabs is one thing, but applying them off punches is a whole different level. The philosophy I have been taught is to first teach the techniques off grabs to understand the technique. Then one graduates to punches after a better understanding of the technique. (It is more difficult to learn a technique off the movement-punch/kick.) I do not mean teaching a block and then hand strike/kick. I mean excuting a Hapkido technique/joint lock/etc. from a punch. I have seen some schools teach the techniques off strikes first. Everyone must do what they think is best. However, I think it is important to get a strong foundation of the techniques off wrist grabs first. Master Michael D'Aloia www.jungkihapkidoamerica.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 10:52:39 -0400 From: "Woodard Brian (ChW/TEF8)" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido In SC? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello all :o) I recently achieved my Cho Dan in TKD and would like to begin studying HKD in addition to my TKD studies. Could anybody recommend a Hapkido school close to Charleston, SC? I would also like to hear your pros and cons on studying TKD and HKD simultaneously. Thanks in advance Brian Woodard --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 08:32:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] TSD Black Belt Class Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Friends, Starting May 8th and May 22nd, we will host a Saturday Black Belt Class at 11:30 am followed by our competition team practice open to all ranks from 12:30 to 2:00pm. After AAU Nationals we may convert this class to once or twice a month and two hours of Dan level material based on attendance and feedback. The black belt class is open to any teen/adult ranked 3rd gup or higher in TSD and any Korean Martial Arts teen/adult black belt. The cost is 1 to 2.5 hours of your ego free time. The black belt class will focus on TSDMDK hyungs (as I interpret them) starting at B(p)assai. Pyung Ahn Hyung will not be covered. And other material that suites my mood (instructor preference). If you are going to tell me how your org/style/instructor does MDK Hyung, please don't come. Competition team practice covers the various techniques and strategies presented in Coach Han Lee's tape(s) and a good bit of conditioning. Many of my point fighters come for the conditioning and have had success applying the concepts from the WTF style sparring to their point sparring. Please bring Hogu, shin/instep pads, and headgear. We have a limited number of loaner hogu. Yours in jung do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 11:01:18 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: "that technique does not work" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> I won't attempt to ferret out who's "right" and who's "wrong" in this particular argument, but I do think it's valuable to clarify what certain sides are trying to say and where they're coming from. I've been on both sides of the coin, and I've resolved my own cognitive dissonance over this matter by simply deciding the following..."I know what type of training makes me happy, and that's what I do.". I think a good many people would be well-served by just buttoning their lip and applying this policy, but that's just not the case and the internet has provided a considerable pulpit for their views. I think what a good many young people are struggling to say is basically the same thing that a good many of us "old timers" have brought forward for discussion. Namely, why are some widely practiced and touted martial strategies/tactics/techniques not manifesting themselves in the Vale Tudo competition formats that have grown popular in the last decade. More often than not they have a VERY unfortunate way of expressing this (i.e., "traditional arts suck", "that will never work", etc.). On a personal level, I spent a good many years training in the "JKD Concepts" realm, and I was exposed to a pretty diverse menu of material to choose from. This included boxing/kickboxing, FMA, Lee Jun Fan, Silat, Shooto, etc. In regards to the "classical" Jun Fan material, I never really felt happy training in that modality...particularly the compound trapping entered into from reference point positions. I always thought my time would have been better served training boxing/Muay Thai for striking, as well as something that more closely approximated the reality of close range fighting (Judo, Greco, Muay Thai). Now, that may have just been my personal preference, but I was also making a judgment call based upon my own practical experience and observation. Those reference points JUST DO NOT occur in a real altercation, and aggressive combatants just don't act/react in a manner that would facilitate those compound trapping techniques. Hell, it never came out in sparring, so what would make me think "the street" would be any different? It just...doesn't...happen. Watching countless MMA/Vale Tudo/NHB fights has done nothing but bolster that judgment. Where's the trapping? Never have I once seen a simple 'pak sao da' or 'lop soa da', much less a full blown sequence of traps/hits/counter traps/etc. I don't use Vale Tudo as my litmus test for "what's real", but I DO use it as additional objective evidence to support conclusions that seem (at least to me) to be truthful on an intuitive level. Here are some truths that I now hold dear: 1. The efficacy of Wing Chun trapping and it's modified expression in Lee Jun Fan is DUBIOUS at best. Go watch the video of Emin Boztepe and William Cheung getting it on. Why didn't we see a display of Wing Chun the likes of which the world has never seen? Instead, it turned into a bad wrestling match. Human nature overrides training when under the gun...all the time. 2. The "loose tie/grapple" modality seen in a good many expressions of FMA/Silat is just a BAD assumption. Specifically, I'm talking about some of the slick, close range redirections/offbalancing/sweeps seen in Silat, and some of the close range technical drills espoused in some FMA (hubud/lubud comes to mind). People get "grabby" at close range, and this manifests itself in certain locked positions and presence of muscular tension that simply invalidates the aforementioned technical assumptions. Now, that's a couple of conclusions that I've come to in regard to some of the "gospel" that was preached to me a while back. I think a good many people are noting the absence of similar things in MMA. In addition, the misdirections, throws, and standing joint work commonly found in Hapkido/Aikido/Jujutsu has been called into question due to its noted absence from these realms. So, while it's not fair to characterize these things (as well as others) as being "useless" (or whatever unfortunate verbage one chooses to use), I DO think it's healthy to ask why we don't see a lot of this stuff in action. I can't help but think there's got to be SOMEBODY out there that can manifest this stuff, and be willing to step into a ring/cage to provide evidence to such effect. So, I know a lot of people are poo-pooing this stuff, but it's not strictly from their lack of patience with such material or need for instant gratification. I think a lot of folks are just "observing the evidence". What says the jury? CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Hapkido - Curriculum To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 09:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > In Korea, it usually takes a year to get 1st dan. However, the training is > daily and part of the student's everyday routine. Yes, we've discussed this several times on the list. Practice in Korea is ~6 days a week, but typically no longer per day than in the US. > What is a few times a week? 3, 4, 5, 6, 7? 3 or 4 per week is the US average... from previous discussions. Yes? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 09:07:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Master Arce To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] KHF Ranking.... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > <<<... Frankly speaking, there is no one who holds 10th Dan in the KHF > except one master. He is Master Yong-Jin Kim, ex-Secretary General of > the KHF. He passed away 4 years ago, and after his death he was honored to > 10th > Dan by all Hapkido people. So that means in the KHF the 9th Dan is the > highest rank. ... " > Mr. Terry, this is the link I was talking about Sir. I thought Oh Se Lim was 10th Dan because I saw it listed here and many other places. Peace.... http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/tree_oh__se-lim.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest