Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:08:04 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #198 - 17 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: KHF Ranking.... (Ray Terry) 2. Diana Fales on instructor, (George Peters) 3. "that technique does not work" (Eddie Urbistondo) 4. RE: Muay Thai vs Taekwondo (Stovall, Craig) 5. Time Requirements to 1st Dan (FirstPe315@aol.com) 6. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Time_to_master_the_art?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 7. NHB and making it work (michael tomlinson) 8. Hapkido Seminar Review (ABurrese@aol.com) 9. Book value? (Bert Edens) 10. Training Time to SD Ability (DrgnSlyr5@aol.com) 11. Re: One year black belt (tim walker) 12. Re: RE: Muay Thai vs Taekwondo (Ray Terry) 13. Re: How Long to Learn Self Defense (Vic Cushing) 14. RE: Hi to all (Bernard Maginnity) 15. Re: when a popular instructor leaves (Richard Zaruba) 16. The value of Jeet Kune Do (Peter "Nighthawk" Lampasona) 17. Re: The value of Jeet Kune Do (Stickfighter87@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] KHF Ranking.... To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 09:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Mr. Terry, this is the link I was talking about Sir. I thought Oh Se Lim > was 10th Dan because I saw it listed here and many other places. Peace.... > > http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/tree_oh__se-lim.html Not sure where the above got their info as it is just a website. Lots of inaccurate info on the web. e.g. this site does, or did, list "chubby GM wannabe from down Florida way" as a 9th Dan. What we know... Oh Se-lim is not a KHF 10th Dan. What we don't know... is he a 10th Dan under Gm Ji's SinMoo org or perhaps some other HKD org? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 13:30:30 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Diana Fales on instructor, Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Esteemed Maam, Such would also be the case in my own experience, sadly to say, and your evaluation is probably correct. I would like to think that if an instructor wanted to leave an institution that I had built, I would be both proud and a little sad(like when a child leaves to go to college), and would stand in front of the dojang with this individual and wish him/her well. The only different type of senario I can imagine is one where the student would set up a school within his instructor's "territory", this would be in very bad taste, or had done something to violate a "trust". I think as you do that when the administration of a school is secretive and having discussions behind closed doors, they seek to protect THEIR interests, not those of the students. I feel very stongly that the best approach to a situation such as someone leaving is best presented candidly and openly without all the "smoke and mirrors". My own experiences with this is to me a real horror story, and a little honesty would have gone a long way. My advice to anyone in a situation such as this, "when in doubt, do as prescibed by the tenets of your respective arts' founders, not the "poitics" of his followers". So if you belong to a school that acts in an untoward manner in such situations, either seek to correct this(if possible) or leave, if you have a school you should ALWAYS adhere to the code of conduct laid down by the founder(s) of the respective arts. But hey!, that's just how I look at it, what do the rest of our esteemed membership think on this? Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Eddie Urbistondo" To: Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 10:53:23 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] "that technique does not work" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Vale Tudo is a SPORT. Many traditional Martial Arts techniques are not used in Vale Tudo because they are not allowed. All of these tournaments claim "no holds barred" but they have a pretty fat rules book on what you can't do. The claim that many traditional arts are not proficient in the area of real combat is true. Not because of their art, but the way they practise their art. Many current instructors don't know their true art, for example Taekwondo. Taekwondo trained strictly as a sport is a)not traditional b)not very effective for the street. I say not very because many people with speed can punch or kick someone first and win. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 12:58:44 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Muay Thai vs Taekwondo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From your description, I think I know exactly which video you're talking about. That one's made the rounds on the net for a bit. No, it is definitely not TKD's finest hour in that clip. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: FirstPe315@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 14:28:57 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Time Requirements to 1st Dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Charles, I would have to respectfully disagree with you. I think the "time in grade" requirement for Gup levels is ridiculous. Maybe as a benchmark or "minimum" it is O.K. but as a legalistic adherence I'd have to say it doesn't work. Case in point, I have a young lady who comes regularly 4 days a week, every day. That represents 5 hours per week and she travels to seminars etc. within our organization. She is quite skilled and is pretty much good at everything. I think I have a well-rounded curriculum and maybe a little large but nothing impossible for the average student to digest. Anyway, she is coming up on 2 years which will represent, by my figures, about 520 hours and she is about only a Purple Belt with Brown, Red and Black to go. That may represent another 2 years. She isn't anywhere near a skill or knowledge level as a 1st Dan Black-Belt. No comments about what kind of instructor I might be eh! Jeff In a message dated 4/20/2004 9:13:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: IMHO if the cirricula and instructor are good then after 400-600 hours the Cho Dan will be good, and if the instructor and/or cirricula are weak....well.... Yours in Jung Do, --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 13:56:59 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Time_to_master_the_art?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Folks: "......Ray Terry stated, .."It takes years? I've heard this said about Aikido, but not Hapkido. It might take a year (assuming a few times a week at class), but not much more....... " Funny this should come up today. I just a pretty heated exchange with my sword instructor who handed me the usual song-and-dance about how it takes years to master the sword. I pointed out that historically when armies fought campaigns only in the Summer, getting up to speed with a weapon took about 90 days. During the Imjin War the warrior monks were using swords and trained faster than that! My sense is that if a person wants to become highly skilled, or make a life-style of an art then certainly one can spend the rest of their lives training. But to purposely engineer things so as to drag it out, or change material to cause the person to relearn something is a contrivance. For comparison I would consider the LEO-s on this Net. How many of those professionals are advised that it will take a life-time of training before they are ready for the street? Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:39:45 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] NHB and making it work Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Craig raises some good points and these are the same types of observations that I have also noted over the years. heck I have the first Gracie tapes when they were in black and white way before anything called NHB or UFC was invented yet!! when the junk hits the fan a lot of times the deal turns into an ugly wrestling match,,,, that is EXACTLY why we focus more on grappling in my Hapkido program than a jumping back spinning heel kick,,, etc.. etc... Here is what I see in NHB,, Sakuraba does a key lock on someone from a standing position. or side control.. in our style of Hapkido that SAME technique is called an "inside elbow break" and we practice it the same way... All those NHB elbows, low kicks and knee strikes are on our first two belt sheets in Hapkido... we practice them a lot...] Every choking technique I have ever seen in NHB from the clock choke to the naked strangle was on my brown belt and brown belt with black stripe belt tests under Master Harold Whalen,,, I think the thing is is that you have to see past the trees and look at the forest... IF you are always practicing in a static modality you don't get the tactile sense you need to "flow with the go" as Rickson says... that is one great thing about Judo.. the Randori gives you that time to build that skill set..same with Muay Thai,, they throw down on each other eventually and build that force and timing.. I agree with Craig that if you practice from the willing partner in the Dojang all the time the junk don't work... it really isn't that the junk doesn't work, it is that YOU haven't trained yourself at the proper speed and resistance to MAKE it work.. and when you hesitate you get your clock cleaned... Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:16:16 -0400 From: ABurrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Seminar Review Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net 1st posted review of April 17th's Seminar in Boise, ID. http://www.paxbaculum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=189 --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 13:17:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Bert Edens To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Book value? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > My name is Matthew Clement I'm new to this so > bare with me..I was given a green hard cover book > the cover has Korean writing on the top in the > middle is a stamped fist and at the bottom it says > Taekwon-Do..the author is Choi Hong Hi it was > published by DAEHA Publication Company: Seoul, Korea > in 1965..I looked on Ebay for the value of this book > but I could only find other versions printed > later..if anyone knows the value of this book could > you please get back to me..I'm in no way thinking of > selling it I would just like to find out the value > of it. > Matt :) Greetings, sir... I'm sure that book is only worth a few dollars... Are you sure you wanna sell it? :-D Seriously, I'd definitely hang onto it... Master Terry (??) had a good suggestion on a site to check value, etc. I've seen them on eBay for an exhorbitant amounnt, that's for sure... <> - Bert Edens Springdale, Arkansas __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25˘ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash --__--__-- Message: 10 From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:56:08 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Training Time to SD Ability Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Terry wrote: << One is typically able to use HKD in self-defense situations well before they have completely mastered the art. Wouldn't you say??? >> I agree. We have a LEO (law enforcement officer) student who had been with us a week and a half when he used a Hapkido technique he'd just learned to subdue a suspect. Since then (he's now a brown belt), he comes in every week with another story of how he's used Hapkido on the job. Another former student, also a LEO, came in last night. He left us to enter the police academy just after reaching his fourth color belt. He told us that Hapkido has been very useful to him on the street. He will be rejoining us next week. Obviously, both the student's individual learning abilities and the instructor's teaching ability are factors, but to say it takes at least a year or "mastery" before Hapkido is useful for self-defense is an inaccurate generality. Sharon T. --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "tim walker" To: Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:31:29 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: One year black belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Kip PROMISED me there wouldn't be any math... ----- Original Message ----- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 06:26:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] One year black belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >A little math from the engineer martial artist... >black belt is mathematically possible at... >6 days per week 2 hours (or more) class for about 600 hours in one year. Or 300 classes... >twice a week average that's 300 to 500.. --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Muay Thai vs Taekwondo To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 14:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From your description, I think I know exactly which video you're talking > about. That one's made the rounds on the net for a bit. No, it is > definitely not TKD's finest hour in that clip. I've seen it also. Just shows-to-go-ya that leg kicks are a real killer if you aren't training to receive them... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:29:32 -0400 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Vic Cushing Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: How Long to Learn Self Defense Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My reaction is not about whether it takes a long time to learn Hapkido techniques and apply them in real life situations, but rather what is your objective. If it is to teach an entire range of techniques all of which must be performed at the highest levels of skill that takes a long time. Learning to get off the line of attack even if only a little ways and counter striking or kicking can be ingrained pretty quickly. I always struggle with the twin demands of teaching a full art with all that entails and cutting to the chase when it is a matter of survival for my students and not a test of fine motor control. Believe me when your core membership is law enforcement and active duty military they will is listen and learn in direct proportion to how much can be applied in life and death situations. Hapkido works well just remember as Todd Miller related to me as a paraphrase of his GM's attitude, "High Technique is the one that keeps you alive when he is trying to kill you." The ability to perform under stress turns almost everyone back to the basics of movement and footwork to avoid being swarmed under and the simplest to execute strikes,kicks and locks to counter attack. Vic Cushing --__--__-- Message: 14 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Hi to all Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 09:34:54 +1000 From: "Bernard Maginnity" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi William My name is Bernie. I live in Sydney Australia and practiced Rhee Taekwon do for 10 years. I now study Hapkido and would be happy to answer any questions you may have about Hapkido, where to train or anything I know about any of the Master's/teachers in your area. First of all, where do you live? And how far are you willing to travel to train? Kind regards Bernie Maginnity -----Original Message----- From: william smith [mailto:mps_wills@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, 20 April 2004 7:12 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hi to all Hi, I am William Smith, a recent subscriber to the dojang digest. I am young at 13 and do a specific form of Taekwon-do in Australia - Rhee Taekwon-do. I have studied the art for a year and a half and am currently a 5th grade (or green belt blue tip) and was wondering if there is anybody here that lives in Australia and studies this art? Just recently my dojang got shut down because of funding and as there are no other schools around I am thinking of switching to Hapkido, but seeing as i don't know much about the art i was wondering if anybody could give me some info about it? Any help would be greatly appreciated! William Smith. NOTICE The information contained in this electronic mail message is privileged and confidential, and is intended only for use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. Mission Australia has implemented anti-virus software, and whilst all care is taken, it is the recipient's responsibility to ensure that any attachments are scanned for viruses prior to use. --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:51:10 -0500 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] when a popular instructor leaves From: Richard Zaruba To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Am I just deluded or is this normal/customary? > > Thanks, > Diana Fales Hello, Without knowing anything else about the situation my guess would be the head Instructor/ Owner and the particular instructor you are speaking of had a falling out. In the schools I have attended, if an instructor/Black Belt Student leaves to start his own school, if the parting was on good terms the head instructor usually looks for ways to get the students to actively support the new school. Word of Mouth advertising and recommendations, setting up groups to help demo at or for the new school, and so forth. When the parting was on bad terms, everyone gets told not to talk about it especially if the instructor was popular. While not a cultural thing, this seems to be the way thing happen in martial arts and business in general. Richard Zaruba ____________________________________________________________________________ Richard Zaruba Chief Instructor/ Owner Kuk Sool Won Family Martial Arts Center 2500-D South Columbia Road Grand Forks, ND 58201 Http://www.ksw-nd.com/ richard@ksw-nd.com Sch: (701) 775-7088 --__--__-- Message: 16 From: "Peter \"Nighthawk\" Lampasona" To: Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:19:44 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] The value of Jeet Kune Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well, it's me again. I have still been around, just lurking. Based on the response I got last time, not many of you were enthused about helping someone who's far more proficient in writing than Korean Martial Arts writing a book about Korean Martial Arts. Regardless, the book will get written, I believe I'm doing something positive for the arts by writing it, and as I respect the members of this forum I'd rather go with your help than without it. Changing philosophies and interpretations of martial arts ideas are and have been a big issue to all the martial arts communities I've dealt with. While its basis is in Chinese Martial arts, rather than Korean, there is no denying that Jeet Kune Do has had an impact on various martial arts curriculums. So, I'd like to know what you think about it. The value of adapting the philosophies of Jeet Kune Do to Korean styles. Has any of it had an affect on your execution or the way you teach, personally? I'd really like to get a more poersonal idea of what this community's reaction has been to it. --__--__-- Message: 17 From: Stickfighter87@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:06:31 EDT Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] The value of Jeet Kune Do To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I personally have taken the philosophies and concepts of Jeet Kune Do, and adapted it within the Korean arts. Alot of things in TKD that I did not agree with that JKD managed to make work better I used. I adopted the teachings and understanding of the principles of the 5 ways of attack, which is not rocket science, and its found in most martial arts however alot of times no one understands it, unless its been explained to them. Another thing I adopted principle wise of JKD is simplicity, economy of motion. Why telegraph and use rear leg kicks and spinning, or hooking style kicks that one may catch or be able to counter use a front leg kicking attack so it's less telegraphic and simple and direct. As far as hand techniques the Biujee(eye jab) is a given a very effective defesive technique and the Jik Chung Choy (chain punching). The Straight lead punch verticle fist, and the Biajong stance are another more common stance and attack rather than standing in a "fighting stance" more flat footed as found in alot of other traditional arts. Personally I feel JKD has given me alot of great attributes that my traditional art did not give me. Bruce Lee was way ahead of the game in the 60's and 70's. The close range of trapping using the Pak, Lop, jao, Huen, Jut, Jerk, etc.....Sau' is effective in its own right that many traditional schools are not aware of or know how to react too once it's applied to them.....NOT all but most.... hope this helps.....I do not consider myself a traditionalist much anymore for the matter i've adopted most elements from styles like Jkd, Kali, Escrima, Silat, Defensive Tactics, and other eclecticly blended arts.... Cory Ballinger I.M.A.A. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest