Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:48:06 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #200 - 17 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Today's Topics: 1. hi (william smith) 2. techniques that dont work (tntcombatives@comcast.net) 3. how long for LE (tntcombatives@comcast.net) 4. RE: RE: Muay Thai vs Taekwondo (Master Mark Seidel) 5. Stepping (Todd Miller) 6. tma's value in self-defense (SPIVEY JR) 7. time to achieve usefulness of hapkido technique (SPIVEY JR) 8. To Bruce (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 9. one year new math (Calvin Berlin) 10. question for kip (Michael Whalen) 11. Mastery vs Effectiveness (Michael Rowe) 12. RE: "that technique does not work" (Stovall, Craig) 13. Re: RE: Muay Thai vs Taekwondo (Ray Terry) 14. Re: time to achieve usefulness of hapkido technique (Ray Terry) 15. Politics,again (George Peters) 16. RE: Muay Thai vs Taekwondo (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "william smith" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:42:48 +1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] hi Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Bernie, I live in Mullumbimby, about 10 kilometres away from byron bay. I am happy to travel as far as i have to to train. _________________________________________________________________ Get Extra Storage in 10MB, 25MB, 50MB and 100MB options now! Go to http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-au&page=hotmail/es2 --__--__-- Message: 2 From: tntcombatives@comcast.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 05:53:44 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] techniques that dont work Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I heard one of my Aikido instructors say it best: "It is not Aikido that doesn't work...It is YOUR Aikido that doesn't work" Everything has value. For me, I don't like to mess around for ages trying to figure it out. It may not work for me, or it may not work for how I like to apply technique, but it still has value in that someone I teach may be able to use/apply it way better than I...so I better try my best to understand the technique concept. If you dont know it, how can you discard it as useless? For improvement of my police training courses, I look for the 'dark-side-of-the-force' approach so that students may immediately use and apply what they have learned. They simply dont have time to spend with small nuance techniques. For my MA classes, I blend in a whole lot of stuff that may seem useless to some, but the value is shown after a while as the student has a larger repetoir of techniques to access in a given situation. Kinda the right tool for the job concept, and some techniques are more appropriate than others in some instances. Many students struggle and wonder why they have to learn techniques that dont seem to work, when they could get the job done with something they already know. During scenario training, I prohibit them from using the easy technique they know and leave the right opening for the technique they struggle with. Application under pressure usually stops the whining about technique usefulness. Watching a student perform in a fight using the dark-force type style is nice, but the 'art' is really shown by those that use the techniques that take a bit longer to attain. I liken it to watching a hockey game where all they do is trap/left wing lock and then dump it in....it works and is ugly. The finesse plays are what brings me the real enjoyment...even if they dont score. FWIW -- Mark Gajdostik TNT-Martial Arts 503-887-9351 --__--__-- Message: 3 From: tntcombatives@comcast.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 06:19:09 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] how long for LE Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: <> My complete police course is 20 hours. Students must graduate the first class after only 4 hours by applying their knowledge in a low force scenario against me or one of my instructors. At each level they must pass by doing. I dont teach a huge array of complicated stuff, but rather focus on the substance of personal combatives. I get a success story every couple of weeks, with the comments like 'I couldnt believe it was working just like it did in class'. Would I like to train them more? Absolutely. Do they have the time while also expected to train in search & seizure, legal updates, mediation, dealing w/the mentally ill, hazmat, firearms, OC, baton, pursuit driving, pursuit management, building searches, high risk stops etc etc etc etc??? NO. I try to make the courses as intense as possible so that they can immediately use what they know. I tell them it will be ugly and that if they want refinement they need to train a lot longer. If I get a LE student once/year for 8 hours, I call it a success. The more focused students become MA students. I always laugh when one of my MA students holds the average LEOs hand to hand skills in high regard. I tell them that most of my green-belts know more and are better. I bring the sceptics to the police courses as assistants. Good for them to Uke for the LEOs! Always a good time. Check out my humble website for course descriptions. -- Mark Gajdostik TNT-Police Combatives 503-887-9351 http://members.aol.com/TNTcombatives/police.html --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Master Mark Seidel" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Muay Thai vs Taekwondo Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 06:58:22 -0400 Organization: The Midtown Academy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sport TKD is not, self defense, nor should it be used against another art. Although at some open tourneys I have seen TKD practitioners defeat Kung Fu artist using however, TKD rules which limits sweeps, face contact and kicks below the chest protector. At no time would I use any high or spin kicks outside of a sport/tournament setting that was TKD only or if I was in a cross art tournament; and that is what I teach my students. I will never forget taking Kempo lessons and throwing a high round house to my Sensei's head during sparring; huge mistake, I was on the floor in 2 seconds maybe less. Mark Master Mark Seidel Martial Arts /PE Program The Midtown Academy http://www.midtownacademy.org -----Original Message----- From: Stovall, Craig [mailto:CStovall@nucorar.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 1:59 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Muay Thai vs Taekwondo >From your description, I think I know exactly which video you're talking about. That one's made the rounds on the net for a bit. No, it is definitely not TKD's finest hour in that clip. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Todd Miller" To: Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 07:44:52 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Stepping Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net IMHO about 90 percent of the techniques that people can't get to work in Hapkido involves some wrong stepping. I agree with Mike on this one! One of the most important aspects of a technique that works is being in the correct position where you do not have to use strength. Correct stepping is where it all begins. The way I teach stepping at my dojang is 1. Ask yourself where do I want to go? For example if I want to end up behind my opponent I will use a cross step/X step. If I try stepping with a triangle step it is very awkward to end up behind my opponent. How somone steps is the first thing I notice if the technique is not working or not flowing smoothly. Todd Miller Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Association www.millersmudo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 06:12:01 -0700 (PDT) From: SPIVEY JR To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] tma's value in self-defense Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Vale Tudo is a SPORT. Many traditional Martial Arts techniques are not used in Vale Tudo because they are not allowed. All of these tournaments claim "no holds barred" but they have a pretty fat rules book on what you can't do. The claim that many traditional arts are not proficient in the area of real combat is true. Not because of their art, but the way they practise their art." eddie, very well put indeed. you've hit on 2 key points (which i agree with) that are sure to create a firestorm in both camps.... 1. vale tudo, ufc, and the other mma competitions are not "no holds barred". many very effective self-defense techniques that could be used in a street fight are banned from those competitions. lots of tma people point to this argument to refute the argument made by lots of mma people that tma are "useless" (to use one their more polite words) in real self-defense. 2. there are indeed a good number of tma schools that teach self-defense in too compliant a manner. if you ever have to defend yourself, you will fight as you train. just as an example, if you train against compliant partners who tell you which hand they'll punch with, punch at you slowly then pull the punch or punch a foot away from your face, you could very well be in for a rude surprise if you had to defend against a real punch. this is the type of argument that lots of mma people make against tma being useful in self-defense. one can learn effective self-defense skills in probably any tma, if that is the focus of their training. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 06:28:03 -0700 (PDT) From: SPIVEY JR To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] time to achieve usefulness of hapkido technique Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "to say it takes at least a year or "mastery" before Hapkido is useful for self-defense is an inaccurate generality." sharon, granted, but that's not the way i read most of the posts on this subject... i'll only speak for myself, however. what i was trying to say is that to get to a point where you can rely on formal techniques like wrist locks and throws - without setting them up first with some kind of basic strike - will take years. that is definitely not to say that a year's hapkido training will not be useful - of course it will. most people with a year's training will be better prepared than an untrained person in a self-defense situation. another point to consider with regard to law enforcement applications of technique: i'll just put this out as a hypothesis. an opponent may be more likely to submit to a law enforcement officer after the initial couple of blows in a fight than to a person who is not a law enforcement officer, since all but the craziest among us will realize that there are serious legal consequences to fighting with the police. i'm sure there are many cases to the contrary, but i'm suggesting this idea as a generalization. just something to think about... --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 09:06:27 -0500 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] To Bruce Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, I assume you are writing this to play the devils advocate a bit because it seems the opposite of some things , but this is exactly the same discussion that has take place on the military and on Hapkido. I don't think you can assume that the average foot soldier had mastered the sword. Some may have had some level of skill and may have even been proficient (like the Warrior Monks), but the average conscripted or volunteer troops probably were not even that proficient. I know that this seems to be the case from the things I have read about Europe during the same era. And there is a big difference in knowing some basics, being proficient in basics and in mastery. So I think the question is what level of proficiency do we call mastery. Danny <<>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 09:13:59 -0500 From: "Calvin Berlin" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] one year new math Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Actually he's going to need another month for "Koryo" poomse 8 Taegueks + Koryo "Going math crazy for illustration Take an athletic 17-27 year old (you know LEO rookie or GI) For six two hour classes a week. Teach one new WTF kick a week for the first four months. Teach one new Taekyuk a month for the next 8 months Meets all the minimum requirements for KKW 1st Dan...." Pil Sung Cal ----------------------------------------------------- This electronic mail transmission contains information from P & H Mining Equipment which is confidential, and is intended only for the use of the proper Addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us immediately at the return address on this transmission, or by telephone at (414) 671-4400, and delete this message and any attachments from your system. Unauthorized use, copying, disclosing, distributing, or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this transmission is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. ----------------------------------------------------- <> --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Michael Whalen" To: "dojang digest" Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 09:27:42 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] question for kip Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Kip, How can you expect me to solve this equation if you don't give me the most important facts? Were the moonpies chocolate or vanilla? And is there any beer on this train? michael whalen KSWnut --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 09:28:14 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Mastery vs Effectiveness Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mastery - Being able to do a technique in almost any situation from almost any scenario, without thought or delay in almost any position. Being able to flow into any other technique as situations change, while at the same time maintaining a smooth and balanced physical, mental and emotional composure. Effectiveness - Being able to get a technique to work when needed though not in the most perfect of manners, maybe with a bit of panic, and not always pretty. But effective enough to work. Mastery takes a life time especially in Hapkido. Nobody I know of has done it, including Choi Young Sool or Ji Han Jae (by their own admissions even). Effectiveness can be accomplished by many in anywhere from a 6 months to a year. I say this because of the levels my trainees have accomplished in that time and the improvements they have seen in dealing with inmates within the jail and on the street. Michael Rowe --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:04:31 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: "that technique does not work" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Go and reference Article 8 of the official rules of Pride FC. There is no prohibition against any sort of small joint manipulation, or joint locks from a standing position. The UFC is watered down so that they could get back on DirecTV, and our state athletic commissions are a bit picky in this country. However, stuff like Pride and IVC are pretty close to true Vale Tudo, soooooooo I don't see what's stopping Mr. Aikido from going in there and throwing everyone around by their wrist and elbow. I don't discount joint/limb manipulation from a standing position. I still train a bit of it myself. My question is why we don't see more of it. I'm not convinced that it's absence is because of prohibitive rules. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Muay Thai vs Taekwondo To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Sport TKD is not, self defense, nor should it be used against another art. > Although at some open tourneys I have seen TKD practitioners defeat Kung Fu > artist using however, TKD rules which limits sweeps, face contact and kicks > below the chest protector. Not necessarily true. You are assuming that the sport TKD person can't train and fight under different guidelines. Sure, if they go into a situation fighting as they would in a TKD match they'd likely get their butts beat, but most are (or should be) smarter than that. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] time to achieve usefulness of hapkido technique To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > another point to consider with regard to law enforcement applications of technique: i'll just put this out as a hypothesis. an opponent may be more likely to submit to a law enforcement officer after the initial couple of blows in a fight than to a person who is not a law enforcement officer, since all but the craziest among us will realize that there are serious legal consequences to fighting with the police. i'm sure there are many cases to the contrary, but i'm suggesting this idea as a generalization. > > just something to think about... I'd say your hypothesis in incorrect. They have already resisted arrest. If they can fight and get away before backup arrives they might not see the inside of a jail cell, at least on that particular evening. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:39:28 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Politics,again Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Richards, I see your point to an extent, however, what about the places where all business is done in a cloudy mist or behind closed doors. Many school owners say that "the business is mine, the school itself belongs to the students,whose character defines what type of institution it is." I guess what I'm trying to say is that even though we may OWN a martial arts business, should we not all be held accountable to the higher code of martial arts conduct even in business dealings so as to be an example to the rest of the world? If I expect a student to maintain a code of conduct as long as he/she is affiliated with my school, why would I not also require that business be done on the same "higher plane"? None of the comments on each "being human" works for me here, as we all walked in off of the street one day in the past and made a commitment to better ourselves, to become better people, and if someone has not managed to do this in basic business relations, then I feel they are failing and only giving lip service to martial values in the pursuit of money. Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfeeŽ Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --__--__-- Message: 16 From: PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Muay Thai vs Taekwondo Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:42:30 +0100 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Dave hi all. I am but a lowly yellow belt. I recently entered an open style competition. to hone my skills before the competition I went to a very reputable MUAY THAI boxing club. I just wore my dobok pants and a T-shirt. the owner of the club worked out my style. I was honest about what I was there for. I asked him to help me with my boxing skills. he put me in with 2 people over 2 rounds. they never put a glove on my face and we were going at it in MT. in fact I stopped one of them with a heel to the inner thigh! we have MT guys come to our club all the time to spar. most don't come back -----Original Message----- From: David Weller [mailto:dweller@greatbend.com] Sent: 20 April 2004 13:54 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Muay Thai vs Taekwondo Just watched a short video from the Muay Thai association of Finland. Titled Muay Thai VS Taekwondo. I tried the web site listed on the video but it's just not available, the video is something I "just ended up with". About a minute and a half of fighting. As a Taekwondo practitioner, all I can say is "ouch." TKD guy got beat up pretty bad ... typical modern TKD tournament fighter; hands down, bouncing around. MT guy walks in on him, hand up and starts punching. TKD guy tries to throw some of those pretty, fast high kicks ... boom..MT guy cuts his legs out from under him every time with round kicks to the hamstring or inner thigh ... ouch again. Love to share the video, but it's 11.5 MB and the web site for the assoc. is foo-barr ... email if you want a copy and have the bandwidth to handle it.. Dave Weller _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the number given, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest