Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 08:16:06 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #202 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: RE: "that technique does not work" (Ray Terry) 2. Koryo (Ray Terry) 3. RE: popular instructor leaving our school/politics (Diana Fales) 4. class sparring (freddie bishop) 5. Re: RE: "that technique does not work" (jeffrey kiral) 6. Comportment (Charles Richards) 7. JKD and KMA again (Charles Richards) 8. That technique doesn't work (Charles Richards) 9. stepping in the ring (A. Boyd) 10. Knee Forward Kicking thoughts (Lasich, Mark D.) 11. RE: LEO training (Rick Clark) 12. Re: class sparring (Ray Terry) 13. RE: "that technique does not work" (Stovall, Craig) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: "that technique does not work" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 18:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > you probably dont see "mr. aikido" because there really doesnt seem to be a > "mr. aikido" in the UFC...only seems to be a "mr. > i-took-3-months-of-training-in-every-style-i-could". I don't know what fights you're watching, but I can tell you're not watching the Pride or UFCs or some of the stiffer promotions out of Japan. These guys are great fighters in simply amazing shape with years of training, both standup and ground fighting. Few of us here could go thru just one of their workouts, much less a week or month of them... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 18:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Koryo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Actually he's going to need another month for "Koryo" poomse > > 8 Taegueks + Koryo > > AFAIK, Koryo is not in Kukkiwon requirements for 1st Dan. Right. Amazing how many schools get this wrong (per the Kukkiwon guidelines). Koryo is the form for 2nd Dan. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Diana Fales" To: Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:07:20 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: popular instructor leaving our school/politics Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks Mr. Peters, Mr. Zaruba and Mr. Williams for your replies! I have always felt that the "right" course of action would be in a "tenets over politics" way, and that integrity and courtesy should be upheld even in the face of business/politics/money (as an aside, I saw the O'Jays in concert last summer and they were fantastic!). Setting an example of the values you are trying to build in your students should be a priority for a Master/school owner...the "do as I say and not as I do" should not apply. Yes, change is upsetting. Losing a favorite instructor will take some adjustment. Just let us say goodbye, for goodness sake! Preparing us for what's happening would win more trust than acting as though nothing has changed. It's kind of patronizing, in a way. Who knows how things will shake out, because I am not the only curious person in the school. There are lots of people asking lots of questions...hopefully we'll get a straight-up answer and we can all move on. Again, thanks for your replies. Diana Fales --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:44:02 -0700 (PDT) From: freddie bishop To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] class sparring Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net During class, we spar with rules like, all kicks above the waist, no head punches, no sweeps, takedowns, throws or other useful techniques. My classmates are all 5'10 or taller. I'm 5 feet tall exactly, not so limber (but I'm improving),what do I do to be more challenging in the dojang? Fred TKD __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "jeffrey kiral" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: "that technique does not work" Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 23:52:36 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net i do watch it...i didnt say that they are not great fighters, or that their regime is easy...but how many times have you seen a purely one style master compete in those events, leaving aside muai tai or brazilian JJ? how many aikido masters or hapkido masters or tang soo do masters or kung fu masters etc............? there are mostly MMA fighters, no? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Terry" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 6:10 PM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: "that technique does not work" ". > > I don't know what fights you're watching, but I can tell you're not watching > the Pride or UFCs or some of the stiffer promotions out of Japan. These > guys are great fighters in simply amazing shape with years of training, both > standup and ground fighting. Few of us here could go thru just one of their > workouts, much less a week or month of them... > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:16:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Comportment Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read "...even though we may OWN a martial arts business, should we not all be held accountable to the higher code of martial arts conduct even in business dealings so as to be an example to the rest of the world? If I expect a student to maintain a code of conduct as long as he/she is affiliated with my school, why would I not also require that business be done on the same "higher plane"? ..." MC reply George, It drives my wife nuts when I answer questions with "time will tell." The harsh reality is that schools that don't have that higher level of conduct (almost) never make it past the third (if first) year. Buyers are not that dumb any more and the market is too saturated. Or put another way a business that doesn't add value to it's community will always fail, just a question of time which is (almost) a direct function of available capital. What is sad is that some of the less cautious will be burned during the period such a school is open. If you're not a Darwinist there's nothing I can say to keep you from struggling with that one.... Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:45:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] JKD and KMA again Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read "...there is no denying that Jeet Kune Do has had an impact on various martial arts curriculums. So, I'd like to know what you think about it. The value of adapting the philosophies of Jeet Kune Do to Korean styles. Has any of it had an affect on your execution or the way you teach, personally? I'd really like to get a more poersonal idea of what this community's reaction has been to it." First you have to decide a few things or you will be lost in a spiral. 1. Am I true to my base art and "filling in some holes"? 2. Am I looking for the thusness of fighting? 3. AM I a Jun Fanologist? For me I'm a combination of #1 and #2 with little to no #3. I have almost 20 years invested in Korean Martial arts and 15 of those in Tang Soo Do so For lack of a better word we teach what many might call Tang Soo Do plus. >From day one I teach people to parry naturally and de-emphasize hard style blocking. We teach sparring by doing from white belt. We teach the five ways (angles) of attack. We introduce and apply the 4 ranges of fighting. We filter korean martial arts through theoretical JKD. Five years ago when I drafted the cirricula I made an informed decision not to have a fight club of 40 year old felons with cammo pants and black t-shirts getting together to "reality fight" twice a week, but to include realistic self defense/fighting (in the 4 ranges) in the cirriculum. The other post is correct, even though IMHO broader than "TSDMDK" we are limited in our "fighting" to TSD/KMA filters. The first acid test will be comming to Cho Dan in a year or so and here's my take on my "experiment." Unless I go to two hour classes and age 12+, I won't be able to get the fighter proficcient in 4 ranges at 4 years and cho dan. I do believe that at cho dan the Moja Kwan adept will be proficient in realistic fighting from the Kick, Punch, and Trap range (in that order of proficiency). The lack of skill in grappling is due to "instructor preference/limitations" I think if we continue to get some good session in Jackson with folks like Master Perry Lions we can fill that void in our ground fighting skills and stay true to the KMA (ie no BJJ). The cho dans will also be proficient in applying the 5 ways of attack. As this Kwan evolves we have learned a few things from this list. Thanks to the lengthy discussions about poome, Jr. BB etc, we have acknowledged that we have two cirricula. TSD/poome and Moja Kwan Mu Do/Adult. Very similar to what Timmerman SJN does. Our TSD/poome program looks like a downline from Funakoshi Sensei A lot of Dae Ryun A lot of Hyung And A lot of basics No Weapons No Pressure Points Few Joint manipulations Proper Falling and rolling, but few takedown/throws No memorized one steps Yours in Jung DO, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:52:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] That technique doesn't work Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Why is it the best threads start up when I'm trying to go to lurk mode! That techniques doesn't work is almost my favorite thing to hear another player say. But my favorite is "couldn't I just do "X" while you're doing that technique?" All my senior students just smile because they know my answer is "OK come here and show me." They think it's funny that nobody can figure out how to do "X" when the technique is done correctly. Of course there are a few things that just cause me to put notes on my list for Jackson questions :-) Returning to lurk mode, MC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 03:43:44 -0400 (EDT) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] stepping in the ring Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jeffrey Kiral wrote: "... how come you rarely see a 3rd dan HKD or a high ranking aikido practicioner in these events? is it really because tha traditional MA's dont work? i dont think so....what if one of these high ranking masters of a single style were in these competitions? dont you think he would be able to use his "traditional" skills or techniques effectively?" I reply: I think this may have something to do with a thing I have begun calling "the master trap". Kodanja in TMA have a number of responsibilities, not the least of which is being an example to their students and juniours. After a while, the pressure of displaying superior technique can really start to eat at people. It can get harder to get on the mat and do rather than stand by the mat and advise. For those who base their livings on MA instruction, there can be an enormous amount of risk involved in engaging in any situation where you might appear less than masterful. Worse, their ability is taken as representative both of their rank and their style. A success makes their art awesome and people of their rank to be feared. A failure casts doubt on the art and casts ridicule on TMA rank. By comparison, the jack-of-all-trads (TRADitional martial arts) MMA fighter, stands not so much as a representative of a style, but as a performer of selected techniques. Their physical prowess and ability to fight are measured against the opponent's. Just stepping into the ring earns respect - win or lose. The 3rd Dan Hapkido practitioner has a lot of baggage piled on them if they try to step into the same ring. The way I see it, they don't represent their skill, they represent their art. Their training is not "technical" as is the MMA-ist, it is traditional. They are seen as adherents to a style, not as an individual. The TKD vs MT clip mentioned earlier is a good example of this. The TKD stylist is rarely cited as the reason why the fight is won by the MT stylist, TKD itself is. ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Lasich, Mark D." To: "Dojang (E-mail)" Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 09:35:05 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Knee Forward Kicking thoughts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I've let some time pass on this thread, but there are still some things on my mind that finally prompts this post. I don't know if there is an actual question here, or just thinking "out loud": I fully agree that knee forward, and generating power from the largest to the smallest in order without interruption is ideal, and leads to maximum power generation. If we are breaking boards, great - you want all the power you can get. On the flip side, when sparring, especially not a life and death situation (you know, for fun, points, in class, etc.....) is power generation really that important? Knee forward will no doubt mask exactly what kick you are throwing. However I am guessing that in any dynamic sparring situation, once the leg goes up to kick (especially the front leg), the foot still on the floor is probably not pointing directly toward the other guy, which means the hip is already somewhat turned! So, with some of the hip action taken out of the equation, one would need to increase the speed/acceleration (F=MA) to generate more power/force. You'd want to do this anyways to score quickly :-) Back to F=MA, I am thinking that putting the hip into the technique would be putting like more mass into the technique. Throwing the technique with the hip already fully, or somewhat turned, reduces the mass (I guess), and leaves one wanting more speed/acceleration to generate the power. Now, can fully utilizing the hip to generate power potentially slow the overall execution of the kick, I believe it might. Conversely, for me, kicking quickly with the hip already turned *seems* faster? If we believe the power equation, the speed is as important as the mass involved! So, do our most powerful kicks really need to involve the hip??? (I believe so, but hey, this is physics ;-) Put the hip action and speed together and, well forget the wood, and go for breaking bricks! Something to ponder on a warm, but rainy, spring day in Pa. In the spirit, Mark --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] LEO training Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 09:03:58 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Brian, > From: Brian Beach [mailto:brian@jinpalhapkidodc.com] > > How many of you have a techniques for LEO as part of your curriculum? I do that and have volunteered my time to teach LEO. I have coordinated my teaching with the training department. I have given my time because Training for LEO has been a pet peeve for me for years. I have my M.S. and B.S. in Criminology and have worked in the field. Over the years I have been shocked by the lack of training in hand to hand combative techniques (less than deadly force training). Yet most departments will require an officer to qualify with a firearm twice a year (deadly force). There seems to be an inverse relationship in training. The area that is used the least (deadly force) is trained most, and the area that is used the most (less than deadly force) is trained the least. It's been a learning experience for me as I have been asked advice in the area of executive protection and I had to answer truthfully I had no ideas in this area. So it required some research on my part and some education from the officers to get me to the point where I could even begin to offer an opinion. I have also had the opportunity to offer some techniques to the SWAT team training officers. The thing I have found is that before you offer techniques ASK WHAT THE LEO WANT FROM YOU, not what you want to teach them. It is critical that you understand the use of force guidelines of the department. Each department will have different guidelines but they all will probably be very close. You have to be sure that whatever you teach to LEO will fit into the techniques approved by their department. I would encourage all of the instructors on the list, when ever you have the opportunity to volunteer your time and knowledge to LEO. They are underpaid and provide a line of defense to the general public, something many of us take for granted. Rick Clark "Illegitimis non carborundum." ("Don't let the bastards grind you down.") -Gen. Joseph Stilwell www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] class sparring To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 08:33:33 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > During class, we spar with rules like, all kicks > above the waist, no head punches, no sweeps, > takedowns, throws or other useful techniques. My > classmates are all 5'10 or taller. I'm 5 feet tall > exactly, not so limber (but I'm improving),what do I > do to be more challenging in the dojang? Sport TKD does favor the tall lanky player, but you can still do well by working on your strengths. Get inside their legs, use your speed (assuming you have some speed :), work on your flexibility... but remember that it is just a game. Don't get too worried if you don't do exceedingly well at this particular game. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 10:47:03 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: "that technique does not work" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Well, I'd challenge you to name more than a handful of fighters that fall into the "3 month" category. Especially when you're talking about the field in UFC, Pride, etc. It takes an average of 7 years to get a black belt in BJJ, so if you see a guy stepping into the ring with a black, brown, or even a purple belt you can bet a week's pay he's been studying somewhere more than 3 months. Same thing for wrestlers. Most of the guys like Mark Coleman, Mark Kerr, Kevin Randleman, Tito Ortiz...these guys have wrestled competitively for YEARS...grade school through college in most cases. You take those skills and experience and overlay a striking and submission game, and you've got someone with more than a "smithering" of fighting skill. It's not like these guys are the typical pencil necks that go around and take 3 months of TKD, and 6 weeks of Hung Gar, and 6 months of Judo. People like Royce Gracie, Wanderlei Silva, Sakuraba...these people are MASTERS of what they do in the purist sense of the word. No, they don't have some certificate signed by some guy with a P.O. Box in Korea, but the skill and knowledge is there. <<>> That's what I'm asking. Or more accurately, why don't you see NHB fighters incorporating those skill sets? Is Hapkido harder to learn than Jiujitsu? Let's see...you can get a black belt in Hapkido in Korea in about a year or two, but after three years in BJJ you're doing good if you've got two sripes on your blue belt. What am I missing here? Personally, I'd rather sling a guy around by his wrist than dry hump him for 30 minutes if I had my druthers, and I'm pretty sure the sentiments of the average NHB athlete mirror my own. So again...what am I missing here? <<< is it really because tha traditional MA's dont work? i dont think so>>> I agree. I see a lot of people with skills in the "traditional" arts of BJJ, Muay Thai, boxing, wrestling, Sambo and Judo doing QUITE well. I think we have to be careful with terms like "traditional"...what does that exactly mean? If something is traditional just because it's been established for a long time and has an identifiable technical curriculum, then most of the things on my list have been around a pretty long time and they certainly have a body of established technique. As for time, they've been around a lot longer than most of the "traditional Korean Martial Arts" as a matter of fact. If traditional means you throw over-cooperative people around without getting your hair mussed, then no...I don't think we'll ever see that be successful. Please don't think I'm picking on Aiki based arts, or arts that espouse a heavy emphasis on standing joint work. That's not the case. I'm still waiting on the Wing Chun/Jun Fan guy that can come along and do all that fancy trapping. I'm also waiting on the Silat folks who can supposedly make people slip and fall as if they were standing on a skating rink, and hit them with five knees and elbows on the way down. I'm also waiting on the FMA guy that can "defang" Wanderlei Silva with those fancy "guntings" and limb destructions. So, please don't think my critical eye falls only on certain arts. In the end, I'm just fascinated that we don't see certain skill sets manifest themselves regularly when those same skills are practiced, trained, and espoused on such a wide basis. My mind is open to a lot of possibilities, but I don't like to discount what my eyes and common sense are telling me. <<>> I dunno. If he got his "high rank" and "traditional skills" from playing uke/tori games for the last 20 years, then no...he's going to be in for a shock. Then again, if you put a "high ranking, traditional" Judo guy in there, he will do (and they have in some cases) quite well. This is because he's got the randori and shiai experience on top of the kata. If a guy from XYZ art trains his concepts against a resisting opponent that is behaving in a realistic fashion, then I think you'd see at least some level of success. Now, if a guy spends all his time in "seminar mode" then he's going to be exiting the arena with his crank in a shoebox. You can have the deadliest and most injurious techniques IN THEORY, but unless you have a population of disposable training partners to work that stuff on then it's going to fail more often than not because you've NEVER REALLY PRACTICED IT through to it's ultimate conclusion. You might have simulated it, but there's a difference between simulation and actually doing something. Meanwhile, some snot nosed green belt in Judo can come along and jack your whole world up with a "wussy sporting technique" like a Kimura or Juji-gatame easier than falling off of a log. Reason being is because they've ACTUALLY DONE IT hundreds, if not thousands, of times against resistant partners. For me, it's more about HOW you train than WHAT you train. Talking about "rank", and "traditional", and "Street vs sport" doesn't clarify it one bit for me. In fact, it just confuses things. Furthermore, I think it's more helpful if you talk about these things from the standpoint of "skill sets" rather than whole arts. People tend to be emotionally invested in the latter, and don't take too kindly to anyone daring to question the overall efficacy of it's technical repertoire. I hope that makes sense. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. 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Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest