Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 13:59:05 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #203 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: JKD and KMA again (Stickfighter87@aol.com) 2. korean terminology for unbalancing? (SPIVEY JR) 3. Re: RE: "that technique does not work" (Ray Terry) 4. Koryo (Calvin Berlin) 5. Master Ween - Louisiana? (Clint Cayson) 6. To Fred about sparring taller people effectively (Linda McPharlin) 7. Re: Koryo (Ray Terry) 8. RE: RE: "that technique does not work" (Kevin F. Donohue) 9. hapkido seminar (J R Hilland) 10. Re: RE: "that technique does not work" (Ray Terry) 11. RE: RE: "that technique does not work" (Kevin F. Donohue) 12. Re: Forms for TKD black belts (Patrick Baeder) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Stickfighter87@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:58:21 EDT Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] JKD and KMA again To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 4/22/04 10:42:17 AM US Eastern Standard Time, mojakwan@yahoo.com writes: I made an informed decision not to have a fight club of 40 year old felons with cammo pants and black t-shirts getting together to "reality fight" twice a week, HEY NOW, now thats a Stereotype if I've ever heard one. Why does any one who wears Camo Pants and Black T shirts who train to be a more "realistic fighter" have to be considered as Felons? And no were not all over 40yrs old. If many adults do not want to come into a Dojo/Dojang or whatever and dawn on the so old Pajama looking outfit I believe you call it a GI or a DOBOK, and wear a silly little belt made of cloth to signify some form of rank or ego even possibly I think as an Adult we have that right. Not everyone wants to spend hours on hours a week learning how to perfect a kata/hyung, dawned in the GI, some of us want to come into a class and wear what we would wear on the street, W/ SHOES or BOOTS for that matter and work hard on working out and learning how to fight in a more concievable situation, to defend against attacks w/ weapons, and multiple attackers and learning how to control using things like eye gouges, joint locks, choke holds, vital area striking, bone breaking, and not want to focus on "tagging" a point area in the chest, or back of the head. If you want your child to go to a school to learn TKD/MDK/TSD/Karate for the whole discipline thing and want to put them through a program that gives them drive and teach dedication and supports a positive outreach type program then thats great, but as adults if we don't have that already I doubt a MA club that teaches it is gonna help. Many of adults I know want the more aggressive or more REALISTIC approach training. Becuase its gonna be the Adult who has to fight for his life in the street to defend his family, and loved ones. However Kids these days do too....but its just easier for them to shoot each other and or gang up 12 on one and beat a kid to peices on a school bus or playground so all that MA training wont help them more then likely anyway. So Kids take the MA to learn sportsmanship, dedication, self respect, self discipline amongst other things. Adults SHOULD"T need to seek these things out. IF as an adult they dont possess these traits then they don't need to be training in my opinion anyway. Cory Ballinger I.M.A.A. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 09:01:02 -0700 (PDT) From: SPIVEY JR To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] korean terminology for unbalancing? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net does anybody know the korean term for the japanese concept of "kuzushi" (typically translated as unbalancing) that is so integral to hapkido and to the japanese aiki arts? thanks --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: "that technique does not work" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 09:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > i do watch it...i didnt say that they are not great fighters, or that their > regime is easy...but how many times have you seen a purely one style master > compete in those events, leaving aside muai tai or brazilian JJ? how many > aikido masters or hapkido masters or tang soo do masters or kung fu masters > etc............? there are mostly MMA fighters, no? Mostly yes. The Karate or Kenpo or Judo or ?? guys fought in the first few UFCs. They were expected to do well, but unfortunately they did not. Why? I'd say because they expected to stay within 'their game' and win. Once they got out of their game they had no training in the other guys game. That is why now those that do the best are able to fight standing or on the ground, by submission or by percussion. Probably a lesson for all of us in there... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:12:20 -0500 From: "Calvin Berlin" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Koryo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'd be interested to hear from other TKDers when Koryo is implemented. Is it wrong to require more than the minimum guideline? Actually at our school, Koryo is the form in testing to receive black belt (JiDoKwan / WTF) Pil Sung Cal > > Actually he's going to need another month for "Koryo" poomse > > 8 Taegueks + Koryo > > AFAIK, Koryo is not in Kukkiwon requirements for 1st Dan. "Right. Amazing how many schools get this wrong (per the Kukkiwon guidelines). Koryo is the form for 2nd Dan. Ray Terry" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- This Electronic Mail Transmission contains information from Joy Global Inc. which is confidential, and is intended only for the use of the proper addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us immediately at the return address on this transmission, or by telephone at (414) 671-4400, and delete this message and any attachments from your system. Unauthorized use, copying, disclosing, distributing, or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this transmission is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- <> --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 12:20:43 -0400 From: "Clint Cayson" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Ween - Louisiana? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi All! I have a question about who knows Master Ween of ATF? Recently he visited a school here in Florida and kind of teached an hour to all the kids. With regards to his abilities, what stripes is he holding because he didn't wear uniform when teached the kids that time and we kind of guessing. He gave his brief background that he's been practicing TKD for over 20 years. Your input is highly appreciated. Thanks. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Linda McPharlin" To: Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 00:40:55 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] To Fred about sparring taller people effectively Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Hi Fred, In your case it is all about distance and using it to your advantage. Your opponents, being taller than you, will have a greater optimal distance than you for scoring. You will need to find ways to manipulate the distance between you and your opponent to your advantage, or in other words, find ways to get inside or closer to them to your optimal distance. Once there, use a combination of scoring techniques and then move out again (being sure to move out just beyond their optimal distance--not right into it). Continuing to move in and out on your opponent can be very frustrating to them. If they come after you hard, I would suggest using a well-timed back kick or even two of them followed by an immediate attacking combination from you, then out again. Another option would be to move in to them, crowding them quickly to shut down the attack, then backing off just slightly to counter-attack. Also consider more side-ways foot work rather than forward and back to avoid attacks or to begin your own attack. Some things to consider are... 1. Figure out what your own optimal distance for attacking is as well as your opponent's. 2. Work on using your back kick and jump back kick for defense being sure to keep your head protected while doing so, followed by an immediate attacking combination, then move out again. 3. Learn to crowd or clinch effectively--just long enough to stop the attack, then out again quickly with a retreating counter-attack. If you continue to move backwards away from a combination attack, your opponent may be able to chase you out of the ring or figure out the optimal distance they need and make the appropriate adjustment. 4. Learn to move sideways rather than straight back when retreating from an attack or launching an attack. This will help avoid the above scenario and also will help you to get past those long legs coming at you in order to get inside to your optimal distance. 5. Use faking or drawing your opponent to gain inside access. Practice ways to draw your opponent to kick, then move back slightly or sideways to avoid the expected kick followed by an immediate attack inside from you, then out again. Just some thoughts. Hope they help. Good luck in the future! Sincerely, Linda McPharlin --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Koryo To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 09:47:10 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I'd be interested to hear from other TKDers when Koryo is implemented. I'd guess that it is fairly common to require Koryo for 1st Dan, at least from what I've seen in the US. Per the Kukkiwon guidelines, no new form is required for 1st Dan, just all the previous forms up thru 1st gup. > ... Is it > wrong to require more than the minimum guideline? Actually at our school, > Koryo is the form in testing to receive black belt (JiDoKwan / WTF) I personally see no problem with requiring more than the minimums for a rank. Esp in this case where instructors like having a new form for 1st Dan candidates to learn. I have also seen taegeuk schools require palgue pal jang as the new form for 1st Dan. Comments from others? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 13:10:42 -0400 From: "Kevin F. Donohue" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: "that technique does not work" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Wasn't Royce Gracie studying Hapkido standing techniques and kickboxing from Mr. Nono in Hermosa Beach, CA. Maybe Royce will get that little paper signed by the guy in Korea with the P.O. box. Didn't Gary Goodridge admit that he was a boxer who got the local KuK Sool Won school to give him money to represent their style at the UFC? I think he was given a 4th Dan and the money needed for sponsorship (I think he attended class for 1 1/2 months). Didn't Andy Anderson list himself as being a TKD and HKD black belt.... Does anyone in the community know if Mr. Anderson did indeed study Hapkido at all? I know there was a guy in the UFC who claimed to be a JKD Phase 1 instructor yet nobody in the JKD community knew who the guy was. Don't believe the styles listed or time spent training in a style... Wasn't Kimo listed as a TKD Black Belt and his teacher was Joe Son. The UFC and other NHB has been good for the martial arts as a whole because it showed people that the ability to fight in ALL ranges is a must. On the other hand many of the techniques that people are rushing to study are flawed when applied outside the ring. Try and wrestle in a bar fight and you will find your teeth dropped kicked across the room by some guy who studied only one thing... how to put on Dr. Marten's. Let's face facts, for the most part (Tank Abbott excluded), the competitors who fight in NHB are great athletes. Many are world class wrestlers. You could train these guys in any style and they would be tough in the ring. In fact the wrestlers who could ground and pound were pretty dominant in the early UFC. Many of them have cross trained in other arts but their submission skills are pretty week and they still revert back to the ground and pound. Their awareness of submissions has improved and the wrestlers no longer get caught in armbar's as often. Some wrestlers like Randy Couture have improved their boxing skills a great deal. IMHO there is nothing wrong with cross training but I believe that you should have a solid foundation in one art before you start running from program to program. As you get further into the art you may find that your style has the same kind of techniques as the art that is the latest fad. Certain techniques take a long time to master... But even if you are the best person at deflecting or catching punches you would be stupid to try that if you are fighting Mike Tyson. Also the best wrestler or BJJ player skills can often been neutralized with simple techniques such as eye gouges, fish hooks and or simply biting them. Learn an art... then branch out.... That is my opinion. Have a great day guys. -----Original Message----- From: Stovall, Craig [mailto:CStovall@nucorar.com] Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 11:47 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: "that technique does not work" <<>> Well, I'd challenge you to name more than a handful of fighters that fall into the "3 month" category. Especially when you're talking about the field in UFC, Pride, etc. It takes an average of 7 years to get a black belt in BJJ, so if you see a guy stepping into the ring with a black, brown, or even a purple belt you can bet a week's pay he's been studying somewhere more than 3 months. Same thing for wrestlers. Most of the guys like Mark Coleman, Mark Kerr, Kevin Randleman, Tito Ortiz...these guys have wrestled competitively for YEARS...grade school through college in most cases. You take those skills and experience and overlay a striking and submission game, and you've got someone with more than a "smithering" of fighting skill. It's not like these guys are the typical pencil necks that go around and take 3 months of TKD, and 6 weeks of Hung Gar, and 6 months of Judo. People like Royce Gracie, Wanderlei Silva, Sakuraba...these people are MASTERS of what they do in the purist sense of the word. No, they don't have some certificate signed by some guy with a P.O. Box in Korea, but the skill and knowledge is there. <<>> That's what I'm asking. Or more accurately, why don't you see NHB fighters incorporating those skill sets? Is Hapkido harder to learn than Jiujitsu? Let's see...you can get a black belt in Hapkido in Korea in about a year or two, but after three years in BJJ you're doing good if you've got two sripes on your blue belt. What am I missing here? Personally, I'd rather sling a guy around by his wrist than dry hump him for 30 minutes if I had my druthers, and I'm pretty sure the sentiments of the average NHB athlete mirror my own. So again...what am I missing here? <<< is it really because tha traditional MA's dont work? i dont think so>>> I agree. I see a lot of people with skills in the "traditional" arts of BJJ, Muay Thai, boxing, wrestling, Sambo and Judo doing QUITE well. I think we have to be careful with terms like "traditional"...what does that exactly mean? If something is traditional just because it's been established for a long time and has an identifiable technical curriculum, then most of the things on my list have been around a pretty long time and they certainly have a body of established technique. As for time, they've been around a lot longer than most of the "traditional Korean Martial Arts" as a matter of fact. If traditional means you throw over-cooperative people around without getting your hair mussed, then no...I don't think we'll ever see that be successful. Please don't think I'm picking on Aiki based arts, or arts that espouse a heavy emphasis on standing joint work. That's not the case. I'm still waiting on the Wing Chun/Jun Fan guy that can come along and do all that fancy trapping. I'm also waiting on the Silat folks who can supposedly make people slip and fall as if they were standing on a skating rink, and hit them with five knees and elbows on the way down. I'm also waiting on the FMA guy that can "defang" Wanderlei Silva with those fancy "guntings" and limb destructions. So, please don't think my critical eye falls only on certain arts. In the end, I'm just fascinated that we don't see certain skill sets manifest themselves regularly when those same skills are practiced, trained, and espoused on such a wide basis. My mind is open to a lot of possibilities, but I don't like to discount what my eyes and common sense are telling me. <<>> I dunno. If he got his "high rank" and "traditional skills" from playing uke/tori games for the last 20 years, then no...he's going to be in for a shock. Then again, if you put a "high ranking, traditional" Judo guy in there, he will do (and they have in some cases) quite well. This is because he's got the randori and shiai experience on top of the kata. If a guy from XYZ art trains his concepts against a resisting opponent that is behaving in a realistic fashion, then I think you'd see at least some level of success. Now, if a guy spends all his time in "seminar mode" then he's going to be exiting the arena with his crank in a shoebox. You can have the deadliest and most injurious techniques IN THEORY, but unless you have a population of disposable training partners to work that stuff on then it's going to fail more often than not because you've NEVER REALLY PRACTICED IT through to it's ultimate conclusion. You might have simulated it, but there's a difference between simulation and actually doing something. Meanwhile, some snot nosed green belt in Judo can come along and jack your whole world up with a "wussy sporting technique" like a Kimura or Juji-gatame easier than falling off of a log. Reason being is because they've ACTUALLY DONE IT hundreds, if not thousands, of times against resistant partners. For me, it's more about HOW you train than WHAT you train. Talking about "rank", and "traditional", and "Street vs sport" doesn't clarify it one bit for me. In fact, it just confuses things. Furthermore, I think it's more helpful if you talk about these things from the standpoint of "skill sets" rather than whole arts. People tend to be emotionally invested in the latter, and don't take too kindly to anyone daring to question the overall efficacy of it's technical repertoire. I hope that makes sense. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 12:58:02 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] hapkido seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just a quick reminder that the pre-registration deadline for the Hapkido Seminar in Fargo, North Dakota is only 2 days away. Printable flyer: www.hapkidoselfdefense.com/workshop.htm Printable registration form: www.hapkidoselfdefense.com/registration_form.htm For more information, email hapkido@ideaone.net Jere R. Hilland www.rrhapkido.com www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: "that technique does not work" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:06:19 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Didn't Gary Goodridge admit that he was a boxer who got the local KuK Sool > Won school to give him money to represent their style at the UFC? I think > he was given a 4th Dan and the money needed for sponsorship (I think he > attended class for 1 1/2 months). Didn't Andy Anderson list himself as > being a TKD and HKD black belt.... Does anyone in the community know if Mr. > Anderson did indeed study Hapkido at all? I know there was a guy in the UFC > who claimed to be a JKD Phase 1 instructor yet nobody in the JKD community > knew who the guy was. Don't believe the styles listed or time spent > training in a style... Wasn't Kimo listed as a TKD Black Belt and his > teacher was Joe Son. I do believe that "Big Daddy" Gary and Kimo were not long time students of any Korean art. (Any KSWers out there know of Big Daddy's training in Kuk Sool???). Big Daddy is still actively fighting. His style doesn't look like any KSW I've seen. And Kimo never looked like a TKDer either. But he gave Royce all he could handle... But there was Ron 'can't recall his last name', a black guy that has been in the arts for ever and ever. He was probably a bit too old to mix it up, but he got out there and gave it a try. Got creamed. Then there was a younger Japanese Karate guy, the real deal in the Karate circles as I recall. He gave it a shot, but also got creamed. Once these guys got off their feet they didn't know what to do. There is a lesson in there somewhere. As was previouisly mentioned, the long time masters and grandmasters have nothing to gain and everything to lose by entering these competitions. imho Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:27:12 -0400 From: "Kevin F. Donohue" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: "that technique does not work" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray, The older guy who fought was Ron Van Clief who was born in 1943. Here is a brief bio. A martial arts practitioner for over 45 years, Ron Van Clief will be best known to audiences as The Black Dragon. Ron Van Clief began to study the martial arts in 1956 in Brooklyn, New York. He studied jujitsu and karate. Ron also studied kung fu, aiki-jutsu, arnis, and other weapons. In 1973, after the death of the legendary Bruce Lee, producer Serafim Karalexis discovered Van Clief and as a result, Van Clief went to Hong Kong and shot a series of films as The Black Dragon. Ron would go on to form his own martial arts system, Chinese Goju. In 1985, Ron was invited to help choreograph the action sequences of the film The Last Dragon. The film starred Van Clief's student, Taimak Guariello. In 1994, at the age of 51, Ron Van Clief entered the Ultimate Fighting Championship, but lost to Royce Gracie. -----Original Message----- From: Ray Terry [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 2:06 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: "that technique does not work" > Didn't Gary Goodridge admit that he was a boxer who got the local KuK > Sool Won school to give him money to represent their style at the UFC? > I think he was given a 4th Dan and the money needed for sponsorship (I > think he attended class for 1 1/2 months). Didn't Andy Anderson list > himself as being a TKD and HKD black belt.... Does anyone in the community know if Mr. > Anderson did indeed study Hapkido at all? I know there was a guy in > the UFC who claimed to be a JKD Phase 1 instructor yet nobody in the > JKD community knew who the guy was. Don't believe the styles listed > or time spent training in a style... Wasn't Kimo listed as a TKD Black > Belt and his teacher was Joe Son. I do believe that "Big Daddy" Gary and Kimo were not long time students of any Korean art. (Any KSWers out there know of Big Daddy's training in Kuk Sool???). Big Daddy is still actively fighting. His style doesn't look like any KSW I've seen. And Kimo never looked like a TKDer either. But he gave Royce all he could handle... But there was Ron 'can't recall his last name', a black guy that has been in the arts for ever and ever. He was probably a bit too old to mix it up, but he got out there and gave it a try. Got creamed. Then there was a younger Japanese Karate guy, the real deal in the Karate circles as I recall. He gave it a shot, but also got creamed. Once these guys got off their feet they didn't know what to do. There is a lesson in there somewhere. As was previouisly mentioned, the long time masters and grandmasters have nothing to gain and everything to lose by entering these competitions. imho Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Patrick Baeder Organization: Auburn Academy of Martial Arts, LLC To: Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 15:25:20 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Forms for TKD black belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I grew up in a system that primarily required chon-gi forms under black belt (with the exception of Tae Guek Chil Chang at 4th gup). Then at black belt we were required up to four empty handed forms from either the WTF black belt patterns or traditional bassai set patterns. We also usually learned one or more weapon forms at each dan level. Although this may be seen as confusing, practicing forms from several different backgrounds, I have found that this produces black belts that are more well rounded and retain their interest in martial art training longer. Now that I am running my own studio, with quite a bit of freedom to choose which forms are required for my black belts, I will continue to have my black belts learn a minimum of three forms at each dan level (maybe more, why not they should be at that dan level for a significant length of time). I also plan to teach one form set complete from white belt through black belt dan grades. Comments? From: Ray Terry Date: 2004/04/22 Thu PM 12:47:10 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Koryo > I'd be interested to hear from other TKDers when Koryo is implemented. I'd guess that it is fairly common to require Koryo for 1st Dan, at least from what I've seen in the US. Per the Kukkiwon guidelines, no new form is required for 1st Dan, just all the previous forms up thru 1st gup. > ... Is it > wrong to require more than the minimum guideline? Actually at our school, > Koryo is the form in testing to receive black belt (JiDoKwan / WTF) I personally see no problem with requiring more than the minimums for a rank. Esp in this case where instructors like having a new form for 1st Dan candidates to learn. I have also seen taegeuk schools require palgue pal jang as the new form for 1st Dan. Comments from others? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest