Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 03:01:50 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #205 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Cory Ballinger (luke rose) 2. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_"that_technique_doesn't_work"_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 3. Re: Re: luke (Stickfighter87@aol.com) 4. that_technique_doesn't_work (Ray Terry) 5. Luke Rose's Moral Convictions (Lori L Brown) 6. Koryo (Richard Tomlinson) 7. The Judo Master that broke Helio Gracie's arm with a key lock... (Master Arce) 8. Once again...Dr. Bruce to the Rescue (Stovall, Craig) 9. Balence break (Todd Miller) 10. Re: Once again...Dr. Bruce to the Rescue (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:48:11 -0700 (PDT) From: luke rose To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Cory Ballinger Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Cory wrote, So Kids take the MA to learn sportsmanship, dedication, self respect, self discipline amongst other things. Adults SHOULD"T need to seek these things out. IF as an adult they dont possess these traits then they don't need to be training in my opinion anyway. Cory Ballinger I.M.A.A. You had some good points earlier in your post. However the end of your post, which is pasted above, lacks the any consideration of differences. Not everyone has had the opportunity others have had. Not everyone excels at an identical rate at the same thing. The adults who either have not worked or not excelled in the areas you mentioned are the ones who need it the most! Chances are they have at least one child. What do you think they are teaching or not teaching their kids? From what I gathered by your post you don't want to deal with any adult who does not meet your mental or emotional standards. What about physical standards? Would you say the same about an adult who is missing a hand, or an eye, or a limb, or someone who is deaf? If anything it is not the honor role, football scholarship student who really needs the the arts. It is the hard lived life of a less fortunate. For example look at Bruce Lee. His right leg was almost one inch shorter than his left, he was nearsighted, and got into several fights. Granted most of his fights were when he was younger. However, his influence has spread world wide! From what I understand most of that influence was very positive. One other thing is, to me a word is just a word. It does not neatly package up an idea. I am sure we could probably argue what an adult is. To me the words juvenile and adult are simply legal terms to categorize the masses. WE MUST NOT personally judge individuals on their weaknesses or strengths. For we know not what has transpired in their lives. IMHO, the arts are for total self improvement. This post was not meant to offend, but instead I only hope to give you a different view point. Sorry to ramble on, but it struck a nerve. Ouch! Sincerely, Luke --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 11:49:27 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_"that_technique_doesn't_work"_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: "...Who was that? The Judo master, that is..." Masahiko Kimura (1917-1993) It happened in Brazil in 1951 but you may want to read the following entry instead of just listening to me. www.ebji.org/akeem/kimura.html. If that doesn't work a search on Yahoo for "kimura"+judo brings it up as well including a number of other bio-s. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Stickfighter87@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:54:56 EDT Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: luke To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you, and the point was well taken and I appreciate your input. In fact you touched base on several decent points of views. >> Not everyone has had the opportunity others have had. Not everyone excels at an identical rate at the same thing. The adults who either have not worked or not excelled in the areas you mentioned are the ones who need it the most! Chances are they have at least one child. What do you think they are teaching or not teaching their kids?<< This statement being made Luke is not what I am making statements about. My initial response was at the fact many people misjudge how adults and youth train. Many people join martial arts for different reasons however, as an adult I persnally have not ran accross to many adults who join for the mere purpose of learning humbleness, self confidence etc.. so on and so forth im not saying those adults do not exist just not walked into my training place as of yet. Most adults I meet want to learn to defend themselves plain and simple, I give a decent personal evaluation and I can usually tell within a few minutes the type of person they are and how Id approach their training. Im not a master nor a big time instructor for that matter my goal is reality based and helping those that are wanting to learn to defend themselves do just that. I push cardio, and physical workout programs outside of our training ie gyms, YMCA etc..because one must possess these attributes as well. The first step of self confidence will come with the first step to change thier lives physically, as well as mentally. Kids as I see it need to be approached differently but at the same time outside of learning to kick/punch/fight the morall or mental approach that children get is no different than what some may gain attending Church or other sports. Some kids and I was one of them was not good at other sports and as a child if it wasnt for Karate and boxing I think I may of made worse decisions than I did. But as an adult I would like to think that they already possess these attributes, and as for those with handicaps, they are an exception and are having a burning desire to do challenge themselves and thats exceptionally great!!!! If we all had that same burning desire Ithink the world would be less problematic.. Cory Ballinger I.M.A.A. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:30:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] that_technique_doesn't_work Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > "...Who was that? The Judo master, that is..." > > Masahiko Kimura (1917-1993) It happened in Brazil in 1951 but you may > want to read the following entry instead of just listening to me. > > www.ebji.org/akeem/kimura.html. Oh yes. I've seen that video. Helio gets pounded pretty good. He had to fight and defeat Kimura's second before he could fight Kimura. Then Kimura bounces him around the mat for a good while. Good clean family fun... :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Lori L Brown" To: Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:40:49 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Luke Rose's Moral Convictions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Luke not only wrote below, but his attitude conveyed much conviction: "One other thing is, to me a word is just a word. It does not neatly package up an idea. I am sure we could probably argue what an adult is. To me the words juvenile and adult are simply legal terms to categorize the masses. WE MUST NOT personally judge individuals on their weaknesses or strengths. For we know not what has transpired in their lives. IMHO, the arts are for total self improvement." Luke, I think your comments were passionately spoken from the heart. I agree with you. I admire you for your moral convictions and that you have the strength to stand behind what you say. As an adult myself, I would never assume that my job of being a good mother, a good human being, a good citizen, a good role model is ever finished or perfected. As we are all human, we continue to be less than perfect and/or continue to have our own limitations. The fact that most of us persevere (often enduring physical pains) and continue to train in the martial arts, we should all wake up (take our Advil) and pat ourselves on our backs for striving to be better. I strive daily to think of a diplomatic or polite way to respond to someone. I have to strive daily to be better at NOT swearing in the car when all those idiot drivers cut me off or are driving so poorly! I have to remind myself of the martial art tenant of "self-control." I will be testing for my poom belt (at both TKD schools that I attend -- and that is another story) this next month. Then I plan to test for BB in October. The greatest compliment I recently received was from my oldest son (19) when he told me how proud he is of me that I will be accomplishing my goal. He said he knew I was strong, but he didn't think I would finish. He said he is proud of me for not quitting -- that when he looks at me he knows that "if she can do it, so can I." My son stands 6'5" and I proudly stand beside him at 5'7" -- he has the biggest grin on his face when he tells his fraternity brothers "this is my little mommy, don't mess with her -- she can whoop my a__!" I enjoyed your post. Have a great day! Lori --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Richard Tomlinson" To: Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:58:47 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Koryo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In our school Koryo is the pre black belt form. Taeguk 8 for red stripe to red three stripe. At first dan we also can lear Tabek, second dan form. It's not required but taught. sandy --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 11:20:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Master Arce To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] The Judo Master that broke Helio Gracie's arm with a key lock... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I remember the Judo master that > broken Helio Gracies arm in a contest. Who was that? The Judo master, that is... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com Mr. Terry, it was Masahiko Kimura. http://www.judoinfo.com/kimura3.htm --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:45:17 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Once again...Dr. Bruce to the Rescue Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hapkido's most prolific typist writes, <<>> You know, I'm not really in the mood to go round-and-round with you. However, your post tends to insinuate that I have certain character flaws, and that my contributions to this fine list are less than productive (on that point...we'll see). Well, I just won't let that go. I will try to make my replies as even-handed as I can. <<>> And what tradition do you uphold and protect? I speak my mind here. Nothing more, and nothing less. Sometimes I agree with people, and sometimes I don't. One thing's for sure, you can bet your next paycheck that what I say here is my honest opinion. I'm not in the habit of taking opposition for the sake of drumming up conflict. If I tend to be on the other side of the fence than most, it's probably because a lot of people here are traditionalists and I tend to be a lot more non-traditional in my approach. If everybody thought the same way there wouldn't be a need for discussion, or this list. Simple enough? <<>> You missed my point because you're hearing what you want to hear. I'm wondering why we don't see more small joint/limb manipulation from standing positions in NHB. Is it because this stuff takes 20 years to even begin to get good at it? If so, then why can you get a Hapkido BB in a couple of years? Why wouldn't it take 10 years? In contrast, why can a BJJ blue belt take an NHB fight after a year or two of training, and you see his art manifesting itself in terms of the required skills sets (positional game, escapes, submissions). I'm not talking about ARTS here. I'm talking about skill sets. The "time in rank" thing between Hapkido and BJJ is just my way of checking the time needed to start manifesting these skill sets. Oh, and by the way...since you know so much about me then you should be painfully aware of one crucial fact...belts don't mean a flipping thing to me. I don't care WHAT art they come from. "Oh...someone told you that you were good enough to wear a strip of black cloth around your waist? Whoop-de-doo!!! When can we expect the cure for cancer?". <<>> Good grief...where did THAT come from? Look, Musashi...you want to know what I'm "invested" in? I'm invested in my wife and children. I'm invested in trying to build the best possible life for my 5-year-old son who has Down Syndrome. I had a grandmother that died last Monday and I didn't shed a single tear because I simply didn't KNOW the woman. So, I'm invested in making sure that my family relationships going forward don't get as goofed up as the ones before me so that my kids and grandkids might actually CARE about me some day. I'm invested in my career, my future business opportunities, my role as a husband and provider. I'm invested as a student to the arts. I'm invested as a training partner to my immediate peers. I'm invested as a coach to those who've yet to figure out some things that I have. I'm invested in my continuing education. Does that clear some things up for you? Are we communicating now? Why don't you tell me what I SHOULD be invested in? Maybe I'm doing this all wrong? Save it...I already know. I'm supposed to be INVESTED in some particular art or tradition, and latch onto the apron strings of a high-ranking custodian. <<>> What's so sad is that this started out as nothing but a simple technical discussion. Now, you want to broaden out and start exploring WHY people do the things they do. Fine. Start another thread. In the end, I'm just curious as to the things I've already mentioned here. You either don't know the answer, or (more than likely) the answer is too painful for you to explore. And I always love the "if you have to ask..." approach to fending off questions. I know it makes you feel really "zen", but the bottom line is that it's only about 2 IQ points above telling people, "You're just a dumbass". Thanks for telling me what my wife already reminds me of on a daily basis. <<>> I never said anything about winning and losing. An art isn't "valid" just because it manifests itself in Vale Tudo, and it certainly isn't "invalid" if the opposite is true. Then again, I wasn't talking about arts as much as skill sets. Hey, if people have their emotional bank accounts funded by the supposed efficacy of limb manipulation from a standing position...then they have BIGGER problems than whether or not a Hapkido guy can kick some ass at Pride. That's just as sad as some 15-year-old Gracie fanboy that spends 25 hours over at Sherdog's forum trying to explain why his favorite Brazilian fighter THIS MONTH got stomped by some wrestler. Talk about having no self-esteem!!! If the "art" is in the "doing" and not the "outcome" then why would you give two flips whether or not your art "worked"? Given your little unwarranted tirade I'd say that talk of winning/losing (both real and imagined) does make a difference to at least ONE person on this list. Excuse me, I didn't mean to piss on your little fantasy world. <<< Now I have listened to you carry on about NHB for a little bit and the whole while that I listened to this I remember the Judo master that broken Helio Gracies arm in a contest.>>> Kimura. Sorry, I didn't mean to "carry on". <<< The match was over and Helio Gracie would not concede though it was obvious he couldn't continue with the broken arm. My sense is that NHB fans are the same way. Even if it WAS done that a "traditional KMA practitioner" won out over a NHB person its not like you would admit to it.>>> Oh, they'd admit to it. At least I would, although I don't define myself as an "NHB fan". Of course, being the mature and self-actualized individual that I am I'd just blow the whole thing off and make some flip remark like, "Yeah, well...even an old hog can find an acorn every once in a while". What is your POINT? <<>> Point well taken. I first started participating on this list when I still had some ties to the KMA...TKD in particular. That was quite a few years ago...at least five, maybe more. Since that time those ties have been all but severed, and my training interests have taken me to other areas. The reason I still read and participate on this list is because I like some of the personalities on here, the list is a good source of info, and I still feel some nostalgic ties to the KMA. For me, that's where the journey began, and I guess I'll always have memories and feelings about those roots. In brief, I believe this is one of the best moderated lists on the net, it has a good group of members, and Ray does a damn fine job. If I'm interfering with the "KMA vibe" on here...I apologize to Ray, and ALL of the DD members. Suffice it to say that your little self-serving observation WAS successful in at least one regard...I am seriously revisiting some recent thoughts I had as to my place on this list, and the appropriateness of my participation. Right now...it's a coin flip. So, we'll either have to learn to get along, or I'll be inviting you to kiss the last thing you see as I walk out the door. <<>> In the end, you have no idea what I value, or the logic stream behind that valuation. In turn, you really don't have a clue as to what I know, or more importantly, what I can do. I do enjoy "rough-and-tumble" training. Unlike some men my age, I've still got a few ounces of testosterone bouncing around my system, and I take care of myself so that I can still do those things. I also enjoy pure skill and finesse, and I work to cultivate that too. I do a lot of things...I like to box, throw, wrestle, grapple, lock, bang the sticks, etc. All of this done under the banner of "learning", as opposed to being tethered to some long-dead person's symantic circuit. You'll forgive me if I don't need to worship at the temple of "tradition". Personally, I'd rather have my ego knocked down by good hard training, than propped up by the empty validation from mutual admiration societies. No big deal. The only "gold star" I allow myself is the fact that I am at least vaguely aware of my own preferences/prejudices in regards to training (and their associated effect), and I certainly don't think I have a better pot to piss in. Ray, other members...I apologize for the utter waste of bandwidth. The original discussion was pointless, Bruce's offering is useless, and I am currently feeling clueless. There is only one word in the English language to sum this all up...whatever. Craig Stovall CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Todd Miller" To: Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:15:58 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Balence break Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net does anybody know the korean term for the japanese concept of "kuzushi" (typically translated as unbalancing) that is so integral to hapkido and to the japanese aiki arts? Kun Hung = Balence Ka Gi = Break There are several different ways to express this, This was from a Korean who is also an english teacher in Taegu. Take care Todd Miller Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Association www.millersmudo.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Once again...Dr. Bruce to the Rescue To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 14:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > You know, I'm not really in the mood to go round-and-round with you. > However, your post tends to insinuate that I have certain character flaws, > and that my contributions to this fine list are less than productive (on > that point...we'll see). Well, I just won't let that go. I will try to > make my replies as even-handed as I can. Not to worry. Your contributions are always VERY well received and very welcome. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest