Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 03:01:52 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #206 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. To Craig (FRANK CLAY) 2. korean term for kuzushi (howard.spivey) 3. mma vs. tma (howard.spivey) 4. Re: Craig and Bruce (blueknightpi@att.net) 5. KHF in the USA (Ray Terry) 6. BS vs. CS (Eric Walker) 7. UFC & Observations (Brooke Thomas) 8. Re: To Craig (jeffrey kiral) 9. good article...good site (jeffrey kiral) 10. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Not_Really?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 11. AAU World of Forms (Ray Terry) 12. 2004 Young In Cheon Invitational TKD Chip (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "FRANK CLAY" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:05:10 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] To Craig Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Craig, I too have gone rounds with Bruce. Mostly because I have character flaws and am afraid to come to the KHF event next month, and I'm hiding behind the illness of my wife. At least, that is what Mr. Sims chooses to believe, and that is fine. Mr. Sims does not speak for the KMA community, the KHF or anyone else. As your practice is a kissing cousin to our art, and has a good deal to share, I would encourage you to disregard his comments. To give you an idea, I spent six hours testing in front of Master Lim recently, and was recognized for my work at the conclusion. In the end, Mr. Sims determined that I had simply bought my rank. Once he gets something in his head, that is the way it is, and you cannot argue it. Like Master Lim told me, just let it go. Frank _________________________________________________________________ Get rid of annoying pop-up ads with the new MSN Toolbar – FREE! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "howard.spivey" To: Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 08:56:36 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] korean term for kuzushi Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net todd, thanks for the translation. take care, howard --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "howard.spivey" To: Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 09:06:36 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] mma vs. tma Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "I'm not talking about ARTS here. I'm talking about skill sets." seems to me that's the crux of the debate here... fighters (note - fighters, not necessarily martial artists) in mma, nhb, etc. are training specifically to fight. they are aiming to perfect the skills needed to win in the ring, in whatever the rules are for that particular contest. their emphasis is on athletics, not tradition. nothing at all wrong with that. and some of these guys are extremely skilled, no doubt. traditional martial artists, on the other hand, are often seeking a broader skill set (if that's the right term). many aim to take in as much of the tradition of their art as they can. hence the importance to these people of tradition, history, forms. etc. again, nothing wrong with that. the objectives of these 2 groups can be incompatible. which means, to me, that this "debate" has no resolution. there is value in both points of view. it's futile to argue otherwise, whichever side you believe in (and you might believe in both). --__--__-- Message: 4 From: blueknightpi@att.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 13:03:47 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Craig and Bruce Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Craig, stick around. Having never seen you on a mat or in a confrontation I can't testify as to how good your training might be, but if you can move people with anywhere near the skill you sling words, wow. Anyway as someone who uses Hapkido as a core but has modified and added things that lead to survival (always a good objective) I share the notion that whatever I am going to invest my time in needs to work when the fecal matter hits the blades. Bruce, why is it that your motives are always competely rational and pure but others are suspect? Try to stick to discussing ideas rather than labeling people who may simply have a different point of view than you do. Your post to Craig was virtually perfect Hackworth...listen to Pogo, fella, 'cause it will clue you in as to where to look for your enemy. Vic Cushing --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 07:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] KHF in the USA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > deal to share, I would encourage you to disregard his comments. To give you > an idea, I spent six hours testing in front of Master Lim recently, and was > recognized for my work at the conclusion. In the end, Mr. Sims determined > that I had simply bought my rank. However, if you really want to hook up with the KHF and you live in the US you are -always- better off going thru the US reps and their testing rather than via other means. Fewer questions down the road. Just a heads-up. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Eric Walker" To: Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 09:56:13 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] BS vs. CS Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Stovall wrote, <<>> Couldn't be further from the truth... I truly miss your posts when you disappear from the list for a few months. You turn a phrase like nobody's business. I often find myself laughing out loud when I read your posts, you crack me up, I swear you do! I've noticed a tendency among some in the MA community to become wrapped up in the tradition, and the history and lineages of particular arts (NO!) of course i"m not telling anyone on this list anything new, but I think it tends to be because of our oh-so-human-nature. We forget that life and MA's and fighting and everything else is dynamic, and that no matter how hard we try to cram it into a neat little box, it always spills out onto the floor. <<>> Amen to that!!! <<>> Jeez I wish. I'm in my seventh year of hapkido right now and still waiting for that strip of black cloth. <<>> It seems as though it might. At least for me... <<>> And if it is self defense we are talking about the "doing" isn't worth three flips when the chips are down. <<>> Hear,hear! <<>> I speak only for me, but I think your place on this list is highly appropriate and would like you to stay. I've been reading this list for 3 years and although I mostly lurk, I value your opinions and comments, and would be sorry to see you go. Well, I apologize for inserting myself between you two, I don't know where the animosity began or why, but I think the list will mostly agree that we'd be sorry to see either party in this dispute take his toys and go home. My two cents worth of whatever, Eric --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 08:42:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Brooke Thomas To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] UFC & Observations Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey did anyone out there see "Smashing Machine: The Life & Times of Mark Kerr" that ran on DirecTV for a couple of months last year? Here was a former 250+ pound high school/collegiate wrestler who developed his ground-n-pound game--and trained under Bas Rutten and others--into a scary science of his own (too bad the pain killers got to him but I hear he's making a come-back). When it comes to UFC, Pride-type events, I think it's interesting to hear the comments from traditionalists as to the rules in these events, i.e. no groin attacks, finger breaking, biting, eye gouging, fish hooking, etc. When I hear the BJJ guys talk about those reasons the traditionists site, their response is think about what would happen if the BJJ guys were allowed to do that too? Not only would the BJJ-trained guys be better at the ground work, they are also very capable of playing "dirty" and they would probably be in a better position to do it. In any event, I would like to comment on traditional Hapido in the fighting "arena." I take private lessons from a Hapkido Master (Steve Sexton) that is a true traditionalist (has never added or subtracted ANYTHING from his original training under Jung Bai Lee). He had his own school for many years but sold it and got into the bar business. Some of the bars he was involved with were very rough places and by his own estimation, he has been in over 300 fights. Now these "bar patrons" were not professional fighters, but traditional Hapkido was utilized in all the altercations (including attacks from multiple opponents, guns, knives, hatchets, machetees, screwdrivers, gasoline, bar stools, pool cues, ash trays, beer bottles, you name it-he's fought it). Master Sexton has always told me that in THOSE situations, he would do just about anything NOT to go to the ground. However when I asked him how many times he used arm bars, chicken-wing come-alongs, and "crowd control" techniques, his answer was rarely if ever. Unfortunately these establishments were rough enough that leading someone outside with an armbar was generally met with a swing at your head the second you let Mr. Bad Guy go in the parking lot. Also, you open yourself up to have the guy's friend grab you from behind (that you didn't see earlier) as you politely lead the first guy to the parking lot. Asking someone to leave (multiple times and nicely at first), their hostile refusal, generally met with multiple strikes and THEN their removal. And by the way, Master Sexton has told me numerous(!) stories of the actual fights and how "traditional Hapkido" saved his skin. I actually wasn't going to mention this but I recently helped uke for him in a "Hapkido Ultimate Self Defense Techniques" found at (www.shogunmedia.com---that's me getting choked out on the cover). In this series he is interviewed about the details of many of the actual fights and the Hapkido techniques that worked very effectively. Sorry about the plug. In closing, I would like to second Mr. Terry's comments that Mr. Stovall, PLEASE DO NOT stop posting on this list. I skim over some long-winded posts here occasionally but I always read EVERY word you write. Although a KMA list, I find the contributions of folks like you invaluable and outside the KMA box. Thank you. Brooke Thomas Hapkido Blend --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "jeffrey kiral" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] To Craig Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 15:01:26 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net craig, please stay...opposing points of view give the forum spirit...i have been insulted by the best, and that was only a medium basting! lol :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "FRANK CLAY" To: Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 5:05 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] To Craig > Craig, > > I too have gone rounds with Bruce. Mostly because I have character flaws and > am afraid to come to the KHF event next month, and I'm hiding behind the > illness of my wife. At least, that is what Mr. Sims chooses to believe, and > that is fine. Mr. Sims does not speak for the KMA community, the KHF or > anyone else. As your practice is a kissing cousin to our art, and has a good > deal to share, I would encourage you to disregard his comments. To give you > an idea, I spent six hours testing in front of Master Lim recently, and was > recognized for my work at the conclusion. In the end, Mr. Sims determined > that I had simply bought my rank. Once he gets something in his head, that > is the way it is, and you cannot argue it. Like Master Lim told me, just let > it go. > > Frank > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get rid of annoying pop-up ads with the new MSN Toolbar - FREE! > http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "jeffrey kiral" To: Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 20:07:20 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] good article...good site Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net this is a good article that i came across online...the rest of the site is great too...craig, check it out...let me know what you think... http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/sonnon20.htm --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 17:57:10 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Not_Really?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net So lets NOT let this go..... Apparently we have two sets of standards here. When I speak at length, I "insinuate", discussion with me requires "go-round and round", apparently you feel required to defend yourself personally. Apparently it is some difficulty for you to respond even-handedly. ".....And what tradition do you uphold and protect? I speak my mind here....." My traditions and the ones that I up-hold are a matter of record. The issue I identified was that in speaking your mind, you put nothing at risk. This is a KMA Net and people who participate here, by definition, stand by traditions which may be anachronistic, incompatible with sport application, and not always well-served by commercialism. But the fact remains that what I pointed out was NOT your speaking your mind. What I pointed out was your invariant behavior of decrying systems which by your own admission you neither participate in nor understand. This includes your last post in which, once again, you state your tendency to be more non-traditional. I have not found a place where I have stated that you would be expected to think like everybody else. You have neatly ducked the fact that in expressing yourself you deride systems which you know little of and have admitted as much. "....You missed my point because you're hearing what you want to hear...." I didn't miss your point. Your point is a misrepresentation of the Hapkido arts. Joint/limb manipulation DOES take a while to master. Perhaps not 20 years but it takes a while. SOME Hapkido people give out Black Belts in a couple of years. You ask why it wouldn't take "10 years". In Yon Mu Kwan it takes 5 years to be ready to test for 1st BB and that does not guarentee one passes that test. Nor does it guarentee that the new BB would be ready to go into a NHB competition if at all. In "speaking your mind" you suggest that such a person should be able to and perhaps even suggest that in not doing so there is some failing evident. So lets flip the coin over. If a Hapkido person "should" be able to go NHB, how is it we see no NHB people competing in point-fighting and forms competition? How come we never see them do weapons work? And if it is possible to move ahead as quickly as you suggest in NHB methods, at what point do we see people manifesting decades of dedication to their art? You see, Craig? These last questions are silly because the venue, goals and intent of NHB is simply not the same as the Hapkido arts. CAN a Hapkido person compete? I suppose he CAN but that would be HIS choice not the goal of the art. You seem to suggest that in not supporting competition the art is somehow diminished. In fact without hiding behind terms like "skill sets", it would become painfully obvious that "belts don't mean a flipping thing", certification means nothing, lineage means nothing, organizations mean nothing, heritage means nothing and rank means nothing. Yet all of these items play important roles in the nature of KMA. So if none of these things mean anything to you, why would you want to participate in a KMA Net partied by people for whom a number of these items are meaningful and which apparently have little understanding or acceptance of. "......Good grief...where did THAT come from? Look, Musashi...you want to > know what I'm "invested" in? Thanks for the rundown on your domestic situation. Apparently you and that other person in Florida with the ailing wife might get together and organize a MA mutual-support group. HOWEVER that had NOTHING whatever to do with what I asked, nor did I TELL you what you SHOULD be invested in. We were talking about KMA values and you responded with emotionally-laden material perhaps because you neither accept nor understand KMA except on its most superficial and basic level. My premise is that if you are going to "speak your mind" on KMA I suggest you know something more about it than what you don't like or how it superficially does not approximate something that you hold dear. ".....What's so sad is that this started out as nothing but a simple > technical discussion. Now, you want to broaden out and start > exploring WHY people do the things they do....." This is STILL a technical discussion. You are simply being held accountable for speaking as though you know KMA based on generalities drawn from some material. MAYBE SOME of your generalities have merit, but you are espousing conclusions regarding an entire system as compared to an entire system. Before you start running the Hapkido arts down I suggest you find a legit teacher and train for a couple of decades. I suggest you work the same sword form over and over again with no thought other than to press the limits of your own imperfection. I suggest you research arcane and obscure forms knowing full well that you will have quite probably no way of validating what it is that you are researching. I doubt seriously you will, though. To do so would mean that you have put something at risk, say, your time, money, relationships, family and the other things you have mentioned with nothing to justify your decision except your belief in your own striving. Not for the faint-hearted, this. "......So, we'll either have to learn to get along, or I'll be inviting you to kiss the last thing you see as I walk out the door....." This is NOT about walking out the door. This is NOT about Craig going away. Perhaps this is about Craig revisiting his TKD connection and using that as a reference point for framing his contributions. Were you Frank, or Robert, or Richard or anyone else I would hold you to that standard and I would expect others to hold ME to that standard. In my case MY Achilles Heel is the passion I have for some pretty anachronistic aspects of KMA. You can also through in my penchant for organization and sound educational practice. Over time I have spent my time in the barrel as MY passions got me into trouble. I continue to represent myself transparently to this community because I think that is what is expected once we start wrapping Black cotton bands around our waists. But the common ground is a desire to uphold the values of the arts that are examined here. And for me, that is where this dialogue stands right now. Nobody died and left me as the Hapkido police. Maybe other people feel the same and maybe they don't. Maybe they speak-up when they feel something and maybe they don't. I'm one Hapkido person. I thought something, had a feeling and told you flat out. FWIW. Bruce --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 18:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] AAU World of Forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The AAU World of Forms Taekwondo Chips Saturday, May 15 10AM - 6PM The French American International School 151 Oak St San Francisco, CA 94117 Open to all ranks and all anges. WTF, ITF and Tang Soo Do forms accepted. For more info see www.academyoftkd.com Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 18:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] 2004 Young In Cheon Invitational TKD Chip Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Received in the mail from the Korea National Tourism Organization... 2004 Young In Cheon Invitational TKD Chip (formerly the LA Open Tournament) Saturday, May 29 Grand Arena at the C.R.I.A. Equestrian Center 16200 Temple Ave City of Industry, CA 91744 909.860.2758 FAX = 909.392.4744 www.olympiantkd.com Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest