Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 11:54:04 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #208 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: summer olympics (Lori L Brown) 2. Re: Tenets (Patrick Baeder) 3. RE: summer olympics (Master Mark Seidel) 4. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_"that_technique_doesn't_work"_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 5. Mississippi Hospitality (rich hodder) 6. Re: summer olympics (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 7. RE: Name Game (Kevin F. Donohue) 8. Re: Cory and Lori (luke rose) 9. Thank you Master West (Lawren Hasten) 10. Tenets (J R Hilland) 11. Home in one piece . . . sort of (J R Hilland) 12. Tenets of Taekwon-Do (Christopher Spiller) 13. RE: good article...good site (Stovall, Craig) 14. Once again... (Stovall, Craig) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Lori L Brown" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] summer olympics Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:22:39 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Jonathan, The Olympics include Taekwondo Sparring and Judo. To my knowledge, those are the only two martial arts included in the Olympic events. Lori --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Patrick Baeder Organization: Auburn Academy of Martial Arts, LLC To: CC: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Tenets Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 23:35:28 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I may be incorrect, but I believe that the tenets of TKD that most of us know by heart came from the ancient Hwarang warriors. Follow this link for a little more about the codes of the Hwarang warriors... http://tkdtutor.com/02Taekwondo/TKDHistory/07SubakHwarang.htm Patrick Baeder From: "bill mccune" Date: 2004/04/25 Sun PM 07:17:46 EDT To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Tenets I have a student doing a paper on the tenets of Taekwondo. She has asked me who created them and when. I have looked through my meager library and spent many hours on the net searching. I would like to give her some info on where to look. She has been working on this paper for 5 months before she asked for my help. Now I would appreciate any references anybody could give. Thank you in advance. Bill McCune _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Master Mark Seidel" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] summer olympics Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 06:56:36 -0400 Organization: The Midtown Academy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just sparring Mark Master Mark Seidel Martial Arts /PE Program The Midtown Academy http://www.midtownacademy.org -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Jerman [mailto:ghostrider_13@go.com] Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 7:56 PM To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] summer olympics Hi all, I was just curious if they have forms, breaking etc. in the summer olympics or if they just have sparring. Does anyone have the answer to that. ___________________________________________________ Check-out GO.com GO get your free GO E-Mail account with expanded storage of 6 MB! http://mail.go.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 07:15:05 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_"that_technique_doesn't_work"_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jeff: ".....IMHO, what makes Hapkido are not the techniques learned because many of them are the same, some are different, and many of the "schools" (to say nothing of the multiple / original kwans) are reflections of the teachers background and strengths anyway, but it is the doctrines and philosophies of fighting that pull the techniques together. This is not common in other arts. Currently, I am seriously thinking about integrating some knife defense techniques from a style called Junsado because I find Master Kim's techniques simple, hard and effective and I like them better than my own techniques that were taught to me. So, maybe I have a "fruit-salad" style of Hapkido but I consider myself a traditionalist (is that a contradiction in terms ... I don't think so!) I am with you all the way. Hapkido or the Hapkido arts are an excellent method of organizing other material. For instance, though Hapkido itself as only limited groundwork, it provides a place, with its limited groundwork ("positions of disadvantage")for people to hang more material on or branch out in that direction if they want to. In my own case, I have long since, surpassed what my teacher taught me in Sword work, and have really delved deeply into that material. Some people who get introduced to dan bong (short stick) work want to go deeper into that and maybe take up Escrima. That is not the problem. The problem is when people begin to leave off learning the original material, study ONLY the alien material and then represent the alien material as the original Hapkido. Now. I said ALL of that to say this. On an intellectual level the same thing holds true. Hapkido is that it is. Its not an absolute and perfect art and its philosophies are not perfect either. It does provide a venue by which people can grow and become more than what they were. If we are going to talk about Hapkido and bump it up against other activities thats fine. Two things that I would ask are that the comparisons be accurate and appropriate and that the information and conclusions be accurate and appropriate. Craig is not going to go anywhere and neither am I. We are both going to stay here and continue to hammer on our respective positions (and each others') much to Rays' delight/consternation. What gets produced out of this hellish forge will (hopefully) be a clearer understanding and appreciation of the arts. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "rich hodder" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 08:01:51 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Mississippi Hospitality Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear DD, I just wanted to let you know of the fantastic time we had in MS this weekend at Master West's school. There were about 45 people in attendance on Friday night and Saturday afternoon, there just to train and learn. This was all for no charge, except that you were there to learn Hapkido. I took 3 students with me and they could not get enough, which was evident on the ride back to Houston. They talked the whole time back about how wonderful the weekend was and about investing in Bayer stock. Master West, I want to thank you for all the effort over all the years to make Hapkido and all Korean Martial Arts better. Thank you my Friend, Rich --__--__-- Message: 6 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:25:14 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: summer olympics Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Hi all, I was just curious if they have forms, breaking etc. in the summer olympics or if they just have sparring. Does anyone have the answer to that." its my understanding that there will just be sparring in the olympics. poomse and kyukpa have been added to the world chips, but not to the olympics. now that there is a standardized poomse reference available, that will be used for scoring poomse at world level. perhaps in the future they'll add it to the olympics, but i doubt it. i doubt they'll find it pretty enough to hold viewers attention, unlike wushu forms and the like. take care, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 11:04:02 -0400 From: "Kevin F. Donohue" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Name Game To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rudy, I posted the information regarding Mr. Goodridge. The info regarding Mr. Goodridge representing KSW and how the deal was struck came from an interview he gave to one of the full contact magazines. He did not state the organization he was affiliated with but I am sure it could just as easily been some instructor just trying to hatch a marketing scheme using the KSW name. Just like the vast number of schools who claim to teach Hapkido when they only teach basic self defense techniques. Have a great day. Kevin F. Donohue -----Original Message----- From: Rudy Timmerman [mailto:kwanjang@sympatico.ca] Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 8:11 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Name Game Hello folks: Just got back from Korea, so I am trying to catch up on what's been happening on the DD. I read the following, but I am not sure who posted it first. > << KuK >> Sool Won school to give him money to represent their style at the >> UFC?>>> >> >> Yes, I think he was pretty much fronting for the KSW folks. All I >> know is that I almost $h!t my pants when he caught Paul Herrera in >> that crucifix hold, and hit him with about eight elbows in three >> seconds. That's still one of the most brutal beatings I've ever >> seen. It's a wonder he didn't kill the guy I saw a big Canadian fellow in the ring who had the Kuk Sool name on his Dobok. Since I ran the WKSA in Canada at that time, I can tell you that he was not in the WKSA; however, there was another Kuk Sool org in Canada, and they might have had him as a student. I personally can't see the other group fronting money for the Kuk Sool name, as at that time it was about to be dropped in favor of Dahn Mu Do by these folks. There were some TM issues with the use of the Kuk Sool name I believe. Sincerely, Rudy _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 08:27:08 -0700 (PDT) From: luke rose To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Cory and Lori Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello All, I just got back from an extremely cheap yet profoundly beneficial seminar. It was not that I was given many new techniques but that I was opened up to new ways or applications of already known techniques. It was a blast! Anyway, Cory I just wanted to say thanks for the response. So many people take things so personally that all they do is get mad and refuse to communicate in a productive manner. You are obviously not one of these people. On another note Cory, most of my adult students join for the same reasons that yours do. However, many of them come to me six or twelve months later and say something like, "You know all I came here for was cardio and/or self defense but, I realized that I'm more patient with my kids and/or spouse." Or " Now that I have a respect for what and how I'm learning I find that I am less cocky and all knowing as well as realizing that I have soooooo much more to learn." So my point Cory is that even though they may come in for certain reasons does not mean that they are not getting much more. I find the further from conscious "self" I get the stronger the real "self" becomes. If that makes any sense to you I don't know. Thank you Lori for your response as well. This morning you put a little sunshine in my grey filled sky. I admire you for your soon to be accomplishment of black belt! I also admire your son for noticing your perseverance. For as we all know, youth does not always have the time to observe and take away from conquering and adventuring. Keep me up to date with your progress, especially when you get that black belt. Pounding Passions of Ponderous Proportions, Luke --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 08:40:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Lawren Hasten To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Thank you Master West Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To reiterate Lloyd's comments, I want to thank Master West and his instructors and students for taking the time to come out and work with us this past weekend. We had an absolutely wonderful time. There was so much knowledge shared and questions answered that I can't wait to get back to class to play with what we learned. Everyone was so helpful, kind, and hospitable. Special thanks to Dr. Collipp for spending a great deal of time and effort with us. And of course, like a seminar, I certainly didn't go hungry. Look forward to seeing you all again soon. Lawren Hasten --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:56:28 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Tenets Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I first saw these used in the 70's by the ITF. As a hapkidoin, I do not keep up with taekwondo, but I did not know that they were used in other taekwondo organizations. Jere R. Hilland www.rrhapkido.com www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com <<<...the basic Tenants of Taekwondo are: Courtesy (Yeui), Integrity (Yomchi), Perseverance (Innae), Self-Control (Chaje), and Indomitable Spirit (Paekjol Pulgul)....>>> --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 11:12:21 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Home in one piece . . . sort of Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Lloyd, glad to hear you had a good time in Jackson. Master West normally does not have classes on Friday and it is refreshing to know that when you go for a visit from out of town, he makes you feel welcome and opens the dojang. When I first visited the dojang, it was also on a Friday during the late 90's, and Master Hodder, Dr. Tavassoli, Master West, the late Master Renee West, and I worked out on the mats Friday afternoon. Of course, the Saturday open class was also great fun. It was interesting to notice that you would see a 6th in a Japanese karate style travel several hours to class, a fellow preparing for his hapkido chodan from another organization, working side-by-side with his hapkidoin. It hard to find a better group of hapkido folks, some who have been there forever. Jere R. Hilland www.rrhapkido.com www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com <<>> --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 11:09:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Tenets of Taekwon-Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>I have a student doing a paper on the tenets of Taekwondo. She has asked me who created them and when. I have looked through my meager library and spent many hours on the net searching. I would like to give her some info on where to look. She has been working on this paper for 5 months before she asked for my help. Now I would appreciate any references anybody could give. Thank you in advance. Bill McCune<< Mr. McCune, The Tenets of Taekwon-Do were created by General Choi, Hong Hi. Gen. Choi's 1968 textbook, "Taekwon-Do: The Art of Self-Defense" has them listed as: Modesty, Perserverance, Self-Control and Indomitable Spirit (see p. 6). While this is Gen. Choi's first Taekwon-Do publication IN ENGLISH there was an earlier text in Korean (which I don't have a copy of). I am unsure if the Tenets appear in this earlier text and, if they do, what form they take. By the time his 1972 edition of "Taekwon-Do, the Korean Art of Self-Defense" was published, Gen. Choi had settled on Courtesy, Intergrity, Perserverance, Self-Control and Indomitable Spirit (see p. 6, 10) This listing is still current in the ITF syllabus and is present in the "Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do" which was forst published ca. 1983. Hope this helps. Taekwon, Chris __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 13:27:03 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: good article...good site Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Great article. I've been reading Scott Sonnon's stuff for more than a few years. While I'm not a disciple of his per se...I would have to admit that his concepts have had some impact upon my own personal philosophy. Funny you should bring him up, as I was just pondering the purchase of some of his materials not more than a few days ago. Specifically, his "Immovable Object, Unstoppable Force" video series since takedowns/throws have been an area of specific focus for me in the last few months, and I wanted to get ahold of some supplementary material. He is definitely walking to the beat of a different drum. Very interesting and talented guy. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 13:59:49 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Once again... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Well, hey...I can't imagine a reasonable person wanting to defend themselves on a personal level, or to try and clarify the points that they are struggling to make. Then again it's quite all right for you to come on here and go defending the honor of everything that is "traditional Korean Martial Arts", and to cut me down to size in the process whether I deserve it or not. <<>> Well, I'm sorry I don't participate on 20 nets/bulletin boards like you do. Suffice it to say that it will remain a mystery as far as I'm concerned. <<>> Look, I was just having a discussion. Not sure what this has to do with "risk". I'm thinking it has something to do with your notion of "being invested". In regards to that point, you live on your planet and I live on mine. I decry nothing in regard to specific arts. If anything I decry limited or outdated training modalities, and I always try to offer ideas in terms of re-vamping or supplementing those modalities in order that folks might not throw the proverbial baby out with the bath water. In regard to the specific thread, I think what I was saying was quite apparent to anyone that is willing to entertain the question. You obviously are not willing to entertain the question, and attempt to blow it off by regaling me with stories of how Royce Gracie is not going to win the NASKA Weapons championship anytime soon. That speaks volumes as to the confidence that YOU have in what YOU do. But you know what, I really could not care less about this line of discussion going forward. Do you know why? Because it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, and I'm much more interested in addressing the following classy line that you wrote. <<>> Well...if I was wrong in taking your comments personally the first time I think I may be allowed a little leeway in responding to this one. I can say with all candor that I was pretty incensed by your statement. Reason being is that I really DID put something out there "at risk", Bruce. I was willing to open up and reveal some private matters about myself in order for you and everybody else to get a little notion of what makes me tick. To understand exactly where my priorities are, and why I may not share your particular concept of "investment" within specific arts, lineages, and traditions. It was just my way of showing that there have been events in my life that have put martial arts and all its associated personalities into a particular perspective. Maybe to let people know that there's a REAL person behind the screen name, and not just some smartass that's looking to make a name for himself by trolling the Net. Now, it's one thing to ONCE AGAIN have you associate my name with Hackworth as a quick and easy insult. Hey...you don't like someone or their behavior so you just lump them in with Hackworth. As you say...how convenient? I have no idea how Hackworth figures into this, or why in the world you would bring him up. I don't know the man, I don't do business like the man, and I like to think that whatever "reputation" I may have is of a little higher standing than what he's attained. I can only say that it's not the first time you've played this tactic, and it probably won't be the last. I'd say we've once again got a glimpse of what makes you tick...you can't let go what he's done to you, and you're certainly not going to make a road trip to "work out the issues". So...type, type, type. But, that's not why I'm addressing this comment, Bruce. I just find it hard to believe that you would use my son's condition in order to slam me. Yeah, me and Hackworth can hook up and he can cry on my shoulder about his wife, and I can cry on his shoulder about my poor developmentally disabled son. Boy, that's a good one there, Bruce. I mean of ALL the things in my little "run down" that you could have trivialized...my career, my wife, my training...nope, you cut right to the chase and opened fire on a five-year-old kid with a genetic defect. What can we expect for an encore? Cracks about my father's deceased mother? "Pissed" would not be the word to describe how I felt when I first read that one. Believe me when I say that I could better understand if you had just fired off "father of a retard" or some such knee jerk comment. But no, you took the opportunity to take something that's pretty darn important to me, and turn it into a simultaneous jab at me as well as more political commentary that NOBODY here cares about. And before you jump on your "he got a taste of his own medicine" high horse, let me make one thing perfectly clear. You're not talking about a martial art, or someone's favorite magazine personality. You're talking about MY SON'S CONDITION. I can assure you it didn't make it easy to digest the rest of your offering. But, I went ahead and read it, and gave it the attention it deserved. After it's all said and done you may have very well given me some minor points to reflect upon. Assuming you really do what you represent here on this list, then I can't take away from your dedication. Just be aware that I am also dedicated, I also strive, and the path that I walk is no easier or less valid than yours. It is what it is...and it is mine. As to the unfortunate use of my son's condition in your insult...no big deal. Suffice it to say that you just caused the neurons in the reptilian portion of my brain to fire up for a little while, and that's only because I'm not used to being presented with such a comment to deal with (general manners and social conduct being in a somewhat respectable state in my neck of the woods). In the end, there's nothing you can say about my son that will get me riled up for too long. Thanks for reminding me that there's nothing that I would change about that kid, and nothing to get upset about. However...I would greatly appreciate it if you would not go there again. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest