Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 03:01:51 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #209 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. ITF VS WTF FORMS (Richard Tomlinson) 2. RE: technique doesnt work...again (Stovall, Craig) 3. C-Stepping in ITF tuls (Christopher Spiller) 4. Olympic martial arts (Burdick, Dakin R) 5. Stuff and other stuff (J. R. West) 6. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_"That_technique_doesn't_work"_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 7. KSW (Rudy Timmerman) 8. Re: Olympic martial arts (Lori L Brown) 9. Wallpaper and bookshelves (A. Boyd) 10. getting too much email ? (Ray Terry) 11. Re: RE: good article...good site (jeffrey kiral) 12. Re: RE: technique doesnt work...again (jeffrey kiral) 13. Dahn Jun Ki Bup Replies (Kevin Janisse) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Richard Tomlinson" To: Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:27:29 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] ITF VS WTF FORMS Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Whats a "C" step? sandy --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:25:29 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: technique doesnt work...again Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Yes, I hear what you're saying, and I largely agree. Obviously, you wouldn't apply a variation the classic BJJ structure/progression seen in challenge matches and Vale Tudo. For example, low stomp kick, force the clinch, takedown, mount, punch, choke/lock, etc. That would be an example of a classic strategy that would get you killed against two or more motivated opponents. As to whether stand-up fighting would be a better strategy, I would only offer that his two buddies are not going to stand there while you punch/kick/throw the guy to death. Multiple opponents is just a bad place to be. Breaking loose and running is the optimal solution...and I don't mean running from man to man like Billy Jack...I'm talking about running to the police station. But, that's stating the obvious. Two other thoughts on this subject that might be useful: First, purposely taking a mass attack fight to the ground is obviously a bad thing. In addition, having THEM take YOU down is just as bad. It seems counter-intuitive, but the best arts to study in order to learn how to NOT be taken to the ground...grappling arts. The worst arts to study in order to learn how to not be taken to the ground...non-grappling arts. The basic BJJ self-defense curriculum is based around how to quickly nullify most common standing grapples (how to keep him from taking me down). On a similar not, wrestling is a wealth of knowledge in terms of counter-takedowns when you look at things like sprawls, whizzers, control tie-ups, etc.. I would make similar claims about Judo/Sambo. Second thought, grappling doesn't always have to be about BOTH guys going to the ground to stay. Look at the knee-on-stomach/floating pin seen in BJJ/Judo (haven't seen it in other arts). This is a VERY powerful and dominant position that not only gives one control over an opponent, but is also one that allows good position for monitoring what the other guys are doing, and is also one that can be disengaged from in fairly short order. Doesn't always have to be about mounting the guy and sinking in the grapevines, yes? As always, it's not the art, it's the application. FWIW, I always thought the FMA had some very useful strategies in terms of zoning and sectoring in mass attack situations. Bottom line, tough spot to be in. 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Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 12:47:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] C-Stepping in ITF tuls Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Greetings All, > > Fast question. Are ITF forms performed with a > straight step or a "C" step? > > Thank you > > Neal Konecky ITF patterns are performed with a "C" step, which Gen. Choi referred to as following "an outcurved line." His texts make a differentiation between 3 types of stepping; following an outcurved line, a straight line and an incurved line (kind of a reverse C step). The C step is favored because it allows the leg to bend while at the same time the body can naturally turn for hip twist in the technique. The only exception to this rule is when you are stepping in a rear-foot stance (NOT an L-stance/Back-stance; more of a "Cat Stance"). Then an incurving line is used. Taekwon, Chris __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:48:34 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Olympic martial arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >The Olympics include Taekwondo Sparring and Judo. To my knowledge, those are the only two martial arts included in the Olympic events. I think boxing and wrestling are in there too. :) And javelin toss, archery. And what's the one where you ski and shoot a gun? Take care, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "J. R. West" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:10:00 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Stuff and other stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rich and everyone else who made it to Jackson: I had a blast and my students are still talking about being able to come to a blackbelt class on a Friday night and then continue it for several hours on Saturday. As always, it was a pleasure to have everyone at the HQ school and I have already promised my guys that we will do it again as soon as everyone recovers. I want to thank Lawren Hasten for changing the mood and scent in my pool room, now it really reminds me of home. Manson and Dahmer were happy to see some new faces, and they thought that Lloyd looked rather tasty, but weren't sure if they were supposed to eat him or not, and they don't care much for Oriental food, so Tuan was safe. My traveling roadshow will be in Mosinee (dead center) Wisconsin this weekend and Master Jere Hilland will be hosting a one-day event in Fargo, ND as well, and both should be worth the trouble for anyone who plans to attend. I'll be in the Houston TX area on June 12th at Master Hodder's School for a seminar, although the trip will not seem the same since the untimely death of the Mongolian BBQ in Baton Rouge recently. I thought Wayne Watkins and Dr. Collipp were going to pass out from grief. If anyone would like info on these gatherings, feel free to give me a shout and I will pass on any information I have.......J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:53:31 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_"That_technique_doesn't_work"_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Craig: "....As to the unfortunate use of my son's condition in your insult...no big deal. Suffice it to say that you just caused the neurons in the reptilian portion of my brain to fire up for a little while, and that's only because I'm not used to being presented with such a comment to deal with (general manners and social conduct being in a somewhat respectable state in my neck of the woods). In the end, there's nothing you can say about my son that will get me riled up for too long. Thanks for reminding me that there's nothing that I would change about that kid, and nothing to get upset about....." Then, at least in this area we have common ground. You are not going to forget the responsibilities you have to your family and I will not forget the responsibilities I have to my family. In your case you will ever be protective of your son and know that whatever his limits you will advocate for him to grow and come out of the best part of himself. In my case, whatever I must do to nurture my family through the hurt they have suffered I will not forget that tight little constellation of people Spec: Hackworth and Connolly who said and did things out of all proportion to the circumstance. I will not forget that folks like Clay, Annibel, and Pointer continued to support them and remained silent when they could have done the right thing. Finally, I will not forget that these people did all of their injury in the name of an art and a code that they have not the most remote understanding of. Now, MY understanding is that I am suppose to let the antagonisms and injuries of the last two years roll off my back, take the higher road and move on past this. Ain't gonna happen. I am going to remember what happened to me, and I am going to remember that it was people in the KMA and acting in defense of their part of the KMA. Yes, I understand I am not suppose allow myself to become angry and bitter, but I am, and I have steadily lost any desire to moderate this. I will be using this "fuel" to drive my efforts to counter people like Frank getting onto these Nets and pretending to know what martial arts are about after behaving as he did for the last year. And, if you caught some of the wash from my wake, I can only extend my most sincere apologies. Within the confines of my own mind I suspect I was aiming much lower--- perhaps down in the sludge--- when I fired both barrels and you probably just happened to be somewhere in the perifery. Again, my apologies. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 17:21:09 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] KSW Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Kevin writes: > The info regarding Mr. > Goodridge representing KSW and how the deal was struck came from an > interview he gave to one of the full contact magazines. He did not > state > the organization he was affiliated with but I am sure it could just as > easily been some instructor just trying to hatch a marketing scheme > using > the KSW name. Hello Kevin: When I saw the fight (if we speak of the same fellow), I was as surprised as anyone to see a Canadian KSW practitioner. Like I said, I was the Canadian and Michigan rep. at the time, and I had never seen or heard about him. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Lori L Brown" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Olympic martial arts Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 17:18:32 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The skiing and shooting event you mentioned is the Biathlon. You bring up an interesting discussion/question. Yes, those disciplines you mentioned could truly be considered martial arts. However, I do believe it is agreed that Taekwondo and Judo are the only two "modern martial arts" that are full-medal sports. Your point could include fencing, and also the Modern Pentathlon which includes shooting, fencing, swimming, riding (horses), and running. Surely, the Roman warrior would want to be proficient at all of these (except, of course, shooting- no guns then...). Does anyone know much about Pankration? They are trying to gain acceptance, as Taekwondo did, to be admitted to the Olympics. Sincerely, Lori > >The Olympics include Taekwondo Sparring and Judo. To my knowledge, > those are the only two martial arts included in the Olympic events. > > I think boxing and wrestling are in there too. :) And javelin toss, > archery. And what's the one where you ski and shoot a gun? > > Take care, > > Dakin --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 20:40:10 -0400 (EDT) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Wallpaper and bookshelves Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I too would be disappointed if Craig were to stop participating in the Digest. For a while now I have been using his excellent posts as wallpaper in my small cave of an office. When I start to get down over something ridiculous posted to my message board or whatnot, I can always ground myself by reading over a relevent wisecrack or attitude adjustment from Craig "More nicknames than a whole pantheon of deities" Stovall. I personally value function over form in my training so Craig's views are always helpful. I would also be annoyed if Bruce bailed on the Digest. Academic approaches to martial arts seem to be a real point of contention, and those who take that route are often the first against the wall in forums. How often have you seen, "Shut up and just go train," used to 'end' an online dispute on a technical point. What I like about Bruce's contribution to the digest is that he motivates me not to slack off in either area - the mat or my MA library. ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 18:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] getting too much email ? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Getting too much email from the_dojang? Switch to the digestfied version of the list. One email "digest" contains 7 to 15 or so individual messages. Go to the-dojang.net and change your email options. Not getting enough email from the_dojang? Switch your mail options to non-digestified, i.e. each post is an individual email message. Go to the-dojang.net and change your email options. Your login at the-dojang.net is your email address. Don't recall your password? It is automatically sent to you each month or you can go to the-dojang.net and request that it be sent to you. Questions? Go to the-dojang.net. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "jeffrey kiral" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: good article...good site Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 21:13:35 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/iouf-1.htm http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/flowfighting.htm http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/legfencing-1.htm http://www.themartialist.com/1103/ak.htm http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/fisticuffs-1.htm craig, this is another good site...these links are reviews of some scott sonnon material...the first link is a review of his "immovable object, unstoppable force". the rest of the site is pretty good as well.... fyi... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stovall, Craig" To: Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 11:27 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: good article...good site > > > > Great article. I've been reading Scott Sonnon's stuff for more than a few > years. While I'm not a disciple of his per se...I would have to admit that > his concepts have had some impact upon my own personal philosophy. Funny > you should bring him up, as I was just pondering the purchase of some of his > materials not more than a few days ago. Specifically, his "Immovable > Object, Unstoppable Force" video series since takedowns/throws have been an > area of specific focus for me in the last few months, and I wanted to get > ahold of some supplementary material. He is definitely walking to the beat > of a different drum. Very interesting and talented guy. --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "jeffrey kiral" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: technique doesnt work...again Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 21:25:58 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net no doubt...i agree...i would not wish to face multiple aggressives...but i also never assume that they arent there. i have tried a few arts before i settled on Hapkido...it just seems that the way it is taught and the fact that it gives great overall self defense coverage...i dont know what you know about what HKD training is like, but after my first class i was hooked... also, i dont just limit myself to the class work...i train pretty hard outside of class...i am also lucky to have my brother to train with outside of class...the two of us, and a few others from class, are constantly trying to apply our art to real world fighting...i am always looking to improve my fighting skills, and i also consider myself a student of the lessons of bruce lee...and yes, i do like the traditional "yin-yang", old oriental guy with a beard stuff too...just my preference.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stovall, Craig" To: Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 12:25 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: technique doesnt work...again > Yes, I hear what you're saying, and I largely agree. Obviously, you > wouldn't apply a variation the classic BJJ structure/progression seen in..... grapevines, yes? As always, it's not the art, it's the application. > > > > FWIW, I always thought the FMA had some very useful strategies in terms of > zoning and sectoring in mass attack situations. Bottom line, tough spot to > be in. --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Kevin Janisse" To: Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 18:44:16 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Dahn Jun Ki Bup Replies Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello all, Thank you for your replies on the issue of Dahn Jun Ki Bup. I appreciate the feedback but I believe I failed to specifically state what I was looking for. I bet Master Timmerman is also wondering about why I was asking about something he started teaching me 20 years ago. I was actually trying to get a literal translation in Hangul. I have been studying Korean as an elective for my Masters degree and in the process I Am trying to research the origin of many of the common Korean names for Martial arts theories and principles. If someone can direct me or e-mail me the Hangul words for "Dahn Jun" it will help. My own interpretation of the consonants and letter structure used is leading me to a dead end. All in all I am in looking for a Korean Martial Artist who speaks Korean. komapsumnida, Kevin Janisse --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest