Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 21:26:03 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #211 - 19 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Olympic martial arts (tim walker) 2. Mr. Sims (FRANK CLAY) 3. RE: KKW 1st Dan (Chris Hamilton) 4. Re: Craig leaving? (Donald Pillow) 5. wtf/ustu testing (freddie bishop) 6. RE: Olympic martial arts (Stovall, Craig) 7. Re: wtf/ustu testing (Ray Terry) 8. Manson and Dahmer (J.R. West) 9. USKMAF (J R Hilland) 10. KTA vs. kukkiwon (Tkdsid@aol.com) 11. ITF C-Step, Sine Wave, and Cat Stance (Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy) 12. Lori Brown on "tenets" (George Peters) 13. Re: C-Stance, publication dates for ITF encyclopedia (Ray Terry) 14. Bruce on "sine wave" (George Peters) 15. Judging Competitions (A. Boyd) 16. Sine Wave (Ray Terry) 17. Re: C steppin (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 18. RE: USKMAF (Thomas Gordon) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "tim walker" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Olympic martial arts Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 14:02:40 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Kip told me that was called "courtin'". timo --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "FRANK CLAY" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 11:07:10 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Mr. Sims Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, You cannot blame me for anything that Connolly or Hackworth did to you or anyone else. I was not ware of what had happened to you until AFTER it occured, and after which did not see him for two years. I cannot speak for the others. I do not know of their complicity. For my own part, I have come clean with those that I had information pertaining too, which unfortunately was not many, although I can say that there are quite a few that I have found out about later, but those were people like me who had been cheated. Of course, no one is gonna say " Hey Frank, I'm gonna rip these people off". Be mad at me, or the world if you wish. Hold a grudge. That is your perogative; however, do it for the right reasons. Hold me accountable for MY actions not the actions of someone else that I was not even a party to. Frank _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Chris Hamilton" To: Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 14:22:44 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: KKW 1st Dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Koryo was required for my first dan TKD from KKW. Although I think that was a requirement from the instructor not KKW. Chris HMD in BR <> --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Dingodog1@webtv.net (Donald Pillow) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 17:34:08 -0400 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Craig leaving? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yeah, I like your stuff too! And Michael's. And Bruce's. Hope everything turns out OK. I'll say a prayer...something I don't do often enough. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 15:03:27 -0700 (PDT) From: freddie bishop To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] wtf/ustu testing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Does anyone know of the testing curriculum for chodan in the USTU/WTF. My instructor is including "Hapkidoish" self defense "routines" in the testing of all students. He says he has some certification through WHF and Master Myung. Anyway, my experience in Judo has told me the students in the class are not prepared to take falls. Fred __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 17:07:35 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Olympic martial arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<< Does anyone know much about Pankration? They are trying to gain acceptance, as Taekwondo did, to be admitted to the Olympics.>>> Pankration did exist at one time as an ancient Greek combative sport right alongside boxing and wrestling. I believe it roughly translates to "all powers combat". Think of it as an NHB event in the purest sense of the word. Little is known about it except that it was truly a no-rules fight in the sense that all manner of combative technique was brought to bear...punching, kicking, throwing, grappling. There are some historical records that give us glimpses at it, but in the end we don't know much. I'm recalling the writings of one historian who talks of one of the event's more successful champions...I can't recall the name, but the records mention his tactic of grabbing the fingers of his opponent and twisting them until they snapped. I believe he also worked a similar tactic against the opponent's toes when engaged on the ground. Interesting. In modern times, we've seen individuals attempt to recreate this combative sport/martial art. The most famous is probably Jim Arvanitis, and his system of 'Mu Tau Pankration'. Basically, it's a synthesis of boxing, savate, muay thai, wrestling, submission grappling, and a lot of other nasty stuff sprinkled in. I believe his intent is to honor his Greek heritage, and I'm not certain that he claims any direct connection to the real deal. Others have also used the term pankration, and have even claimed outright lineage to the ancient Greek traditions. One notable American fighter did this back in the mid-90's, and had to later recant the lineage story in embarrassment. Those familiar with the 'Pancrase' event in Japan will note the origins of that term...supposedly inspired by the great pro wrestler Karl Gotch during his years spent in Japan. Again, no linkage to the ancient tradition except in name and spirit. I caught wind of a movement to promote Pankration as an Olympic sport at least 5 to 6 years ago. There was some stuff swirling around the Net, and even a few websites were put up. I believe the forerunner of the various groups is still the one headed up by Mr. John Townsley...a "9th Dan" in Pankration, no less. Nothing ever became of any of it, and I question the motives of some of the personalities behind the scenes. If I recall correctly, an American "team" was actually formed, and the likes of Ken Shamrock and Keith Hackney were involved in a coaching/advisory capacity. I think they've moved on since that time. There were also some "karate types" involved in various groups, and the whole thing was looked upon with general skepticism even by fans of NHB/MMA that would have loved nothing more than to have something akin to their beloved sports being presented on the world stage. >From what I know...it's a joke as far as the Olympic acceptance thing goes. I could be wrong. I guess we can watch for it this summer in Athens. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] wtf/ustu testing To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 15:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Does anyone know of the testing curriculum for > chodan in the USTU/WTF. Only minimums are defined, per the Kukkiwon. Your instructor is free to add other requirements as he/she sees fit. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "J.R. West" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 17:17:12 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Manson and Dahmer Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Kevin F. Donohue asked: What breed of dog does Master West have? When you said the size of a horse I started to think Dane?, Wolfhound? Old English Mastiff? Etc... Manson and Dahmer are full blooded Dobermans, but unlike any I have ever seen before, both of hese bad boys weigh in at over 110 lbs. "Manson" (the daddy) is quite a bit bigger and better trained than "Dahmer" who serves no purpose other than the occasional sparring match for his much fiercer dad. I owned "Manson's" grandfather, and he never got to 60 lbs., and the other dogs in "Manson's" litter are all tall and lanky, but my pup is a MUTANT. "Dahmer" is perfectly configured for a dobey, other than the constant stupid look on his face, but he is about half again as big as the average dobey. They tend to keep the riff-raff away from the house......J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 17:58:17 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] USKMAF Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dante: Welcome to the USKMAF. I was independent for 9 years before joining the USKMAF. When I went independent as a 4th dan in 91, it was not something that just happened over night. It took me many years to make the decision to leave and it was not pleasant or easy. But in the long run, things have worked out just fine. Jere R. Hilland www.rrhapkido.com www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com <<<...I have been accepted as a member of the USKMAF...>>> Dante --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Tkdsid@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 19:20:07 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] KTA vs. kukkiwon Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net What is the relative difference and value for Korean Taekwondo Association and Kukkiwon certifications? Which is better? Sincerely, Sid Rubinfeld --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:04:45 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] ITF C-Step, Sine Wave, and Cat Stance Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net For what it's worth, I thought I'd chime in here with my experiences with these topics. Regarding the C-Step: Dena Martin writes: "At what point in training is this C-stepping introduced. I have never hear if it and have been training for 6 years (which I know is not that long)." My reply: I began my martial arts training in 1983 in Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do and for the short time my instructors were around, I don't recall them ever referring to it as a C-step. More of a "stepping and sliding your feet" motion. One year later in 1984 I began training in Tae Kwon Do, Chung Do Kwan. One of the very first things that my Master taught me was walking in front stances with your feet moving in a "C-stepping motion". I was taught this right off the bat. To this day, I teach my students this C-stepping motion and the White Belt level as they move from front stance to front stance, forwards AND backwards. You HAVE to for the last 2 movements of Chon-ji hyung. To my understanding this was the "original" way of stepping from one stance to another. This was the way that Gen. Choi and his top Black Belts taught, the way he taught the 29th Infantry Division on Cheju Island (BEAUTIFUL place by the way) while he and those Black Belts were developing the Chang Hon hyungs. Regarding Sine Wave: Then for some odd reason in the early/mid-80's, Gen. Choi was influenced by some physics guru and was told that by moving in a Sine Wave motion, the body would generate more power... I STILL haven't figured that one out! Everyone knows that the shortest distance from one point to another is a straight line, not an up and down motion like a Sine Wave. Will it generate more power?? Don't know. Maybe I'm wrong or maybe I'm missing something but I always thought that power was best delivered in a straight line motion.. Now, I know that what I am saying can be described as "my opionion". It very well may be, but that was the way I was taught. Here is something that is NOT opinion, but fact. I have on videotape an ITF tournament in April 1989 in Pottstown, PA hosted by Jim Murray, I believe, where Gen. Choi was flown in as Guest of Honor. During that tournament while the Black Belt forms were going on Gen. Choi grabbed the microphone and told everyone to "STOP!" He had ALL Black Belts whether they were competing or not to come out onto the gym floor and have a seat. Gen. Choi then took his jacket off and with the microphone stepped out onto the floor and verbally chastised all the Black Belts for doing the infamous "Sine Wave"... All of the Black Belts were doing Sine Wave motions in their forms. He then demonstrated that while stepping you should NOT step with your body moving up and down, but rather in a straight line, in a C-stepping motion! Low and behold, he just told ALL those Black Belts what I had been learning allllllllll along! He told them they were NOT to do Sine Wave. The look on all the Black Belt's faces was of pure shock. Here they had Gen. Choi tell them to immediately change the way they were stepping. There was obviously a HUGE misunderstanding of either to Sine or not to Sine. If you look at the old dogs of ITF-style, or Chang Hon TKD, they don't Sine Wave.. Regarding Cat Stances: Dena Martin writes "Also, the ITF does not have a cat stance. At least that I have not seen so far." My reply: Well, yes they do. They don't call it a Cat Stance. More of a Rear Foot Stance. I call it a Cat Stance. Again, that is the way I was taught it back in '84. The Cat Stance is introduced in Choong Gun, or Chung Gun hyung, 5th Gup Green Belt level in moves # 3 and 6. I don't have it in front of me right now but I'm pretty sure Gen. Choi talks about this stance in his Encyclopedia. Other things, very quickly: Bruce and Craig, both of you keep up the great posts. Bruce, I met you in Jackson last year and it was an honor. You are very knowledgable and one can learn alot from you. Craig, you just plain crack me up dude. There is ALOT of truth in what you post. I look forward to reading your stuff. I recently hosted Master Hodder at my school for a promotional exam and seminar. If you ever get the chance to have him come to your school you are in for a treat. I still have my bruises! Beware of the "Y-release".... O-tay, I'm done. James Morgan GTKDA --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:16:00 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Lori Brown on "tenets" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Maam, I was also taught the same thing in traditional TSD as to where the tenets of TSD came from. Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] C-Stance, publication dates for ITF encyclopedia To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 17:47:03 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > At what point in training is this C-stepping introduced. I have never > hear if it and have been training for 6 years (which I know is not that > long). I don't know if c-stepping is part of ITF TKD, but it was part of Tang Soo Do back in the day. The idea was your head remained at the same level as you stepped forward, from front stance to front stance. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:47:37 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce on "sine wave" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, This movement that you so aptly describe is what I was taught really makes Korean techniques their own, and I must say that I also have not observed this in any Japanese art, although my scope of knowledge on JMA is very limited. I also notice the same in practictioners who come from JMA to KMA. I HAVE seen this in Chinese arts, although it was very difficult for me to recognize it at first, then I felt stupid because I looked, but did not see. Do you feel this came from CMA into KMA? Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ Test your ‘Travel Quotient’ and get the chance to win your dream trip! http://travel.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:58:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Judging Competitions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I recently took part in a sparring competition which left a lot of its participants feeling confused and frustrated. While our art is not really suited for this type of activity and the type of students do not tend to go out for competition per se, interest is growing in exploring this means of testing ourselves. This is only the second sparring competition that we have held and the rules are still in a state of flux. While the core concepts have remained unaltered for about a year, there have been fairly regular fluctuations in the details. Aside from the developmental state of the rules, I would cite two things as the major sources of irritation among the competitors. The first was that one of the two judges assigned to each match would defer to the opinion of the senior judge. All the judges had the same amount of experience with this rules set and venue (this was the second of 2) yet the lower ranked judge would essentially ask permission to validate a legitimate attack. Clearly, this is ridiculous and in direct opposition to the purpose for having two refs in the first place. The second flaw was that the judges did not stop fighters who were clearly operating under a different understanding of the rules. No explanation was given to explain rulings at any point in the process. This led to a lot of frustration, especially with the teenagers, when points failed to be awarded time and again for strikes which most competitors were told would be legitimate. As frustration mounted, power increased in a vain hope to draw attention to these attacks. That in turn led to increased numbers of injuries. The most common question after each match was, "Why didn't I get any points?" A number of winners even apologized to their opponent for being 'mistakenly' awarded the win. So, assuming that we can work out these two major problem areas, what sort of developmental process will we be looking at? Once the rules become set and clear to all competitors, (like them or not) how long does it generally take for judges to achieve a level of proficiency which will make it fun for all but the poorly adjusted to compete? PS: Has anyone found an effective/practical way to curtail the seemingly inevitable misuse of safety rules by players who value winning over sparring "realistically?" ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 16 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Sine Wave Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net When the ITF's Sine Wave comes up people ask what it is. What does it look like? For a very short video of it check out the archives of the_dojang, filename Sinewave.mov. It comes from the ITF Legacy CD-Rom, with permission. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 17 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 21:35:04 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: C steppin Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net that C step is what we refer to as crescent step. consider yourself in a deep forward stance, as you step forward, you bring the back foot, in a crescent shape, in to meet the other foot, then out to its forward position. although we dont do this, we're overflowin' with ITF (not to mention ATA) schools around here. we see them at our local show-me state tkd tournament. it certainly is interesting to watch along with the sine wave. doesnt seem like a very stable stance to me, but whaddooeyeknow. i'm just a WTFer ;) take care, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 18 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] USKMAF Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 22:21:56 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. James, As a former ATA instructor myself, I know how hard of a decision this must have been for you. Best of fortune to you and USKMAF. See you Jackson this fall. Warm regards, Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest