Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:43:05 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #212 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Re: C-stance, publication dates for ITF encyclopedia (Christopher Spiller) 2. Re: C Step/Sine wave (Christopher Spiller) 3. Korea trip (Rudy Timmerman) 4. RIP (Randall Sexton) 5. GM Lee Yong Su (Barrie Restall) 6. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Frank?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 7. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Sine_Wave_stuff?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 8. wtf/ustu testing (Calvin Berlin) 9. Summer Olympics (Michael Rowe) 10. Re: C Step/Sine wave (Hagness, Chris R.) 11. knife defense - a reality check (SPIVEY JR) 12. RE: Manson and Dahmer (Kevin F. Donohue) 13. Anthony's Sparring (Stovall, Craig) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:46:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: C-stance, publication dates for ITF encyclopedia Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dena, >At what point in training is this C-stepping introduced. I have never hear if it and have been training for 6 years (which I know is not that long). We have been tought different directions that are labeled with letters, D is in front, C is behind you, A is to the right and B is to the left, etc.< Stepping in an "outcurved line" (to use the General's term) was introduced to me during my first lesson. That was back in 1982. I quit after about 9 months, but when I returned in 1986/7 the stepping was the same. This method of stepping is covered in the 15 vol. encyclopedia in volume 3, pp. 202-213. It's also in the 1972 edition and the 1968 book. >Also, the ITF does not have a cat stance. At least that I have not seen so far.< Quite right. I used that term (which I believe originated in various karate styles) because I didn't think most people on the DD would be familiar with "rear-foot stance" (which I *did* use in my original posting). >I read earlier where someone posted that General Choi's first edition of the Taekwon-Do encyclopedia as published in 1968, the first edition in english was published in 1965 (I have a copy). I also have a copy of the 1972 english edition. Don't have them with me so I can't give you the place of publication, but I am sure the 1965 edition was published in South Korea, can't remember right now where the 1972 edition was published.< Yes, my copy of the 1968 text is listed as being published in South Korea and the 1972 text has Canada listed as its place of publication. Taekwon, Chris __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 21:13:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: C Step/Sine wave Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>Dear Chris: "......The only exception to this rule is when you are stepping in a rear-foot stance (NOT an L-stance/Back-stance; more of a "Cat Stance"). Then an incurving line is used...." Not to confuse things but as long as we are talking about such details do you know if the "sine-wave" approach to execution is likewise used in these hyung<< Indeed, sine wave *is* used in executing ITF patterns. There seems to be a lot of people that emphasize sine wave nearly to the exclusion of hip-twist, but I don't think that is what was meant to happen. Officially, the ITF teaches *both* sine wave *and* hip twist. In a seminar with Master Choi Jung Hwa I took a few years ago he made a compaison between a Taekwon-Doin's movement in executing technique with a screw. In other words, you TWIST and DROP as you perform the technique. >>At least I THINK thats what it is called. Apparently it is an exaggerated dropping of the hips into the technique at the point of focus<< Well, it DOES involved dropping the body weight into the technique. As to an exaggeration, well, that's going to depend on one's definition of exaggeration. I've seen General Choi, GM Hwang, GM Sereff, and Master Choi all demonstrate sine wave. In teaching and breaking things down ("first you do this, then this, then...") they all seemed to make the movement a littl ebigger than when they were simply demonstrating the techniques ("like this!"). In vol. 3 of the "Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do" Gen. Choi made a distinction between three types of "waves" (for want of a better word). When you move you move your body move both horizontally (hips twist into the technique) and vertically. The vertical movement can take the form of either a "Saw Tooth Wave" a "Horizontal Wave" or a "Sine Wave". A saw tooth wave is formed if someone straightens their knees when walking. They go from a normal stance to standing straight up and then drop into a normal stance again. In other words there's A LOT of vertical movement. This tends to greatly reduce momentum. THIS is the most exaggerated dropping of the body and NOT what is wanted when sine wave is discussed. A horizontal wave is when the knees are bent so much while in motion that the head stays in one level throughout the motion. In other words, there's NO vertical movement. A sine wave is generated when the knees slightly bend during movement, giving the legs flexibility as well as actually helping to increase momentum basically by falling into the technique as it is executed - I wouldn't say you're off balance, but you're kind of throwing yourself forward (or backward). My feeble attempt at explaining sine wave: Start in a walking stance with the right leg back (straight) and the left leg forward (bent) while executing a punch with the left hand. You begin to step forward to punch with the right hand. As you move forward your knees bend. When the right foot has reached the left foot you're at your lowest point on the vertical axis. As the right foot begins to pass the left foot the knees flex slightly, raising the body (maybe 2 inches or so). As the right foot moves forward you execute the punch while simultaneously dropping the body back down and twisting the hips forward. That's A LOT of description to explain what happen's in a second or so and I know there are others on this list more qualified than me to explain this concept (Robert Martin and Dave Steffan around anywhere?). >>something after the fashion of how swordsmen drop their hips into a cut at the point of impact. Thoughts?<< This is an interesting thought. Unfortunately, my experience with swords is limited to fencing back in high school (foil and epee). Maybe you could tease something out from the description I've given, however. (I know Aikido techniques are supposed to be based on kenjutsu to some extent. Does it make use of dropping the body weight a lot?) >>BTW: I DON'T see the same biomechanic used in the Okinawan and Japanese kata so I am assuming that it is an added bit later in the traditions development. Comments? Best Wishes, Bruce<< Yes, sine wave seems to be something that General Choi developed later in the history of Taekwon-Do. That being said, I don't think it's TOO recent. I have a video tape of ITF instructors in *South* Korea doing patterns in the 1960's. There you can see an earlier version of sine wave, not so refined, perhaps, but there's a definite dropping of the body through the use of knee spring when stepping. Hope this helps. Taekwon, Chris __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 01:19:08 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Korea trip Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > Without putting you on the spot----- well OK I AM putting you on the > spot- > --- would you be willing to offer a rundown on your experience in > Korea recently? Hello Bruce: I personally had a great time, because that is what I decide to have wherever I go. Despite the usual setbacks and small irritations (such as my knees being next to my ears for ten days), I thought the entire trip was even better than two years ago. I think this was largely due to the fact that some of the participants became a closer knit group. I for one had a blast with the folks from California, and it was more than refreshing to see the group from Ohio/Wisconsin under Lou Lannum, Tom Swartwood, and Robert Tellep show the kind of martial art spirit and etiquette that is so lacking in many schools these days. I was extremely impressed with them, and I most certainly appreciated the way they looked after "the old man". The tournament was not run as well as it could have, and the pomp and pageantry normally associated with such events got in the way of the competitors safety and comfort. I would strongly suggest to have the ceremonies and demos on Friday night, and leave the competition for competitors on Saturday and/or Sunday (depending on the numbers). IMHO, the long wait to compete is detrimental to safety, and irritated competitors are apt to take out their frustrations on their opponents. I offer this as constructive critique to improve the event rather than a complaint, as I really try to keep competitors and coaches from being whiners -- Lord knows we have too much wining at the best of time. The training was great, and our host, GM Seo, made himself and/or his top Masters available for training during the entire time we were in Korea; however, the scheduled training was a one day affair at the HQ Dojang and a half day at the Archery range where we also practiced cutting techniques on bamboo etc. Being my usual forgetful self, I forgot to bring some head wear against the strong sun, and I am now suffering from a crispy top. Nevertheless, that part of the training was just great for us Northern folks as it was out doors. During some of the rest of the time, we climbed mountains to see some awesome Temples and, although I was the last one to arrive at the top, I truly enjoyed the climbs. Having brought a sufficient amount of drugs, I never felt in real trouble, although I must admit that I searched out a non traditional restaurant to eat at when the rest of the group squeezed themselves under the usual 12" table. I figured finding a more suitable place with real tables and chairs would save some poor soul from trying to peel me out from under one of those contraptions. Nevertheless, I returned to participate in several (well, maybe a few more:) go rounds of Soju toasts to our hosts (and a number of other things I can't quite remember:) As soon as I am back to normal, I will try and post some pics and perhaps some video on my website, and I'll inform the list when I do so. I was extremely sad not to have a chance to get together as planned with fellow list member Anthony Boyd, as I had hoped to visit his Dojang and see some of the great Haidong Gum Do training. Perhaps next time I'll be able to find him. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Randall Sexton" To: Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 19:44:59 -1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] RIP Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net With all the sadness and trauma going on in the world at the moment, it is worth reflecting on the death of a very important person which almost went unnoticed last week. Larry La Prise, the man who wrote "The Hokey Pokey", died peacefully at age 93. The most traumatic part for his family was getting him into the coffin. They put his left leg in. Then the trouble started. Randall Sexton www.LaughingHara.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Barrie Restall" To: Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 20:35:23 +1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] GM Lee Yong Su Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray, I have received some more information about GM Lee Yong Su. GM Lee Yong Su started training with DJ Choi Yung Sul at the same time as DJ Kim Yun Sang (December 1973) and they were training partners and graded together up to their 9th Degree (in 1984). After DJ Choi died, GM Lee reduced his training, while DJ Kim continued with daily training. They ran a dojang together in Gum San until 4 years ago. DJ Kim and several of his students attended GM Lee's funeral last March. DJ Kim Yun Sang has many of DJ Choi's records and many historical photos, as well as the photos DJ Choi requested of the techniques he was teaching at that time. Its a gold mine, and he guards it well! Regards Barrie Restall --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 06:46:20 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Frank?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Frank: ".....Be mad at me, or the world if you wish. Hold a grudge. That is your perogative; however, do it for the right reasons. Hold me accountable for MY actions not the actions of someone else that I was not even a party to...." Thnaks. I will. 1.) You supported that person knowing full well that you were buying rank and standing from him to which you were not entitled and rank that you had not earned. You knew what he was doing and only complained when his behaviors touched YOU. 2.) You kept quiet even after the facts were revealed. 3.) You shopped around to locate the best (read also "venue of least accountability") source of validation for the rank and standing that you wanted rather than correct your previous behavior and work for your rank as you should have in the first place. 4.) You have since attempted to avoid accepting responsibility for your bad judgement and poor choices. 5.) You continue to work to characterize my efforts to reflect some personal assault on you as a person rather than an indictment of your questionable practices in the cynical hope that attention will be deflected from your behavior patterns. "If you always do what you've always done, you always get what you always got." Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 06:58:14 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Sine_Wave_stuff?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear George: ".....I HAVE seen this in Chinese arts, although it was very difficult for me to recognize it at first, then I felt stupid because I looked, but did not see. Do you feel this came from CMA into KMA?...." I get a little nervous saying that something "came from" one place to another. In Chinese Long Fist I see a version of "Sine Wave" but it is more along a lateral axis than a verticle axis. In this way the body moves more side-to-side than up and down. For myself I see this as more consistent with the sort of body use that one would develope using the c- step. I had always gotten the impression that the "sine wave" was held in some distain by most TKD people, but I wonder if thats because people who advocate for it seem to exaggerate it rather than rely on a more subtle execution. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:26:50 -0500 From: "Calvin Berlin" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] wtf/ustu testing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net " Does anyone know of the testing curriculum for chodan in the USTU/WTF. My instructor is including "Hapkidoish" self defense "routines" in the testing of all students. He says he has some certification through WHF and Master Myung. Anyway, my experience in Judo has told me the students in the class are not prepared to take falls. Fred" I'm not sure what the official minimum curriculum is but we don't have any Hapkido in our testing and we are USTU/WTF. We do occasionally have a class where we do some wrist locks and hip tosses, but never tested. So I would have to say it's not required and added by your instructor. Same here, I'm the only one who knows how to fall (at least with some ability in not getting hurt). That's because I dabbled in Aikido before doing TKD full time. Pil Sung Cal ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- This Electronic Mail Transmission contains information from Joy Global Inc. which is confidential, and is intended only for the use of the proper addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us immediately at the return address on this transmission, or by telephone at (414) 671-4400, and delete this message and any attachments from your system. Unauthorized use, copying, disclosing, distributing, or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this transmission is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- <> --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:29:30 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Summer Olympics Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Lori writes: <> Well lets not forget Fencing, Wrestling (Greco-Roman and Freestyle), or Boxing. These are all martial arts maybe not of an Asian origin but martial in origin nonetheless. Michael Rowe --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Hagness, Chris R." To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:34:19 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: C Step/Sine wave Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In my original art of Okinawan Goju Ryu karate, I was taught the C-step for all forms. The step is the outward curved ("C" is for Crescent) step, meaning your rear foot draws up and next to your front, then passes it and returns to its normal position in your front stance (not used for T-stances, where the narrowness prevents it). More importantly, in Goju Ryu the step is performed with only the ball of the foot touching the ground. The toes and heel are pulled back. My instructors (3rd dan, all of them) explained that the C-step was developed in Okinawa where practitioners used it to feel their way forward into their next stance and to prevent stepping barefoot on any sharp rocks. (Apparently Okinawa is a pretty rocky place.) The head stays level throughout the step (fanatically so), no sine wave whatsoever. The hip motion is generated as you are shifting your weight onto your new front foot; as it's already on the ball, you rotate into your front stance with hip power. In TSD, I was not taught the C-step; that's not to say it doesn't exist, but all our basic movement, forms, etc. use totally straight stepping. A slight emphasis was placed on maintaining a level head (no pun intended) as you step through, but we weren't whacked on the head if we didn't follow this rule strictly. Chris Hagness www.mafci.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:13:24 -0700 (PDT) From: SPIVEY JR To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] knife defense - a reality check Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net i found this link to a knife defene article on another board... it's pretty sobering. i think i'll keep a copy and refer to it if i ever start to feel that i've become really proficient at knife defense. http://www.realfighting.com/0102/edgedwea.htm bottom line: use the richard pryor knife defense - RUN! the examples in this article demonstrate what a high-risk proposition knife defense really is, even if you're well trained. regards, howard --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:10:10 -0400 From: "Kevin F. Donohue" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Manson and Dahmer To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master West, They sound like my kind of dobeys. I have Irish Wolfhounds; Maggie (135lbs) and Bran (185lbs and a wicked temper, but give him a steak and he's your best friend). My first female wolfhound (Maeve 165lbs) had a crush on a red dobey who was afraid of her. She chased him all around and he wanted to just be left alone. Thank God he had the good sense to stay away from her... Could you imagine what a Wolfhound/Doberman mix would have looked like? Good luck with the pups. Have a great day. Kevin F. Donohue -----Original Message----- From: J.R. West [mailto:hapkido@netdoor.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 6:17 PM To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] Manson and Dahmer Kevin F. Donohue asked: What breed of dog does Master West have? When you said the size of a horse I started to think Dane?, Wolfhound? Old English Mastiff? Etc... Manson and Dahmer are full blooded Dobermans, but unlike any I have ever seen before, both of hese bad boys weigh in at over 110 lbs. "Manson" (the daddy) is quite a bit bigger and better trained than "Dahmer" who serves no purpose other than the occasional sparring match for his much fiercer dad. I owned "Manson's" grandfather, and he never got to 60 lbs., and the other dogs in "Manson's" litter are all tall and lanky, but my pup is a MUTANT. "Dahmer" is perfectly configured for a dobey, other than the constant stupid look on his face, but he is about half again as big as the average dobey. They tend to keep the riff-raff away from the house......J. R. West www.hapkido.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 10:48:59 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Anthony's Sparring Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> This is an area that consternates a lot of people, including me. How does one bring "real time sparring/competition" into weapons based arts, and remain true to the original intent of the art without having to stack the dead bodies up to the ceiling. I don't consider myself a sword/blade person, but I understand enough about it to know exactly where your concern is coming from. In truth, karate point sparring has the same problem...where does one draw the line? Was that really a good side kick, or did the guy just raise his leg and let the other fighter run into it? The subjectivity of it all just lends to the "bad" judging that you experienced. Sticking strictly to weapons, my experience is more in the realm of Filipino Martial Arts. However, that realm does have a good example of how different groups manage this problem. If you look at what the Dog Brothers (and others who do similar things) do in terms of their sparring, you see folks using fairly large sticks and very little protection. Some of their guys go with nothing but batting gloves and fencing helmets...most use street hockey gloves, some light padding for knees and elbows, and a variety of light headgear. When you watch them spar, you can actually see aspects from across the full spectrum of their training come out. People are VERY aware of range management (because there are REAL consequences to getting hit), defensive blocking/parrying/evasion is manifested (same reason as before), and offensive maneuvers tend to be more sophisticated than just standing there and whacking each other (did I mention those consequences). In other words, I see things that reflect and honor the reality of where the art is really "coming from". Then you look at something like what WEKAF does...fairly light sticks, and padded armor from head to toe. I haven't seen a ton of it, but I've seen enough to agree that it deserves the nickname of "Fred Flintstone Eskrima". Basically, two guys standing toe-to-toe and whacking each other until the referee calls a break. This is because the consequences of getting hit are not as severe as the DB modality, and it doesn't take a fighter long to figure out that the more times you hit a guy the more often you win. So...we have Fred Flintstone Eskrima. Now, not to belittle WEKAF because I have respect for what they do. It is what it is. However, I think the DB way would more often create the better fighter in terms of someone that could actually deal with the reality of fighting with a stick in a "real fight". Bottom line...the people who are most willing to say "to heck with safety" are the one's that are going to be sniffing around closer to the truth. The more safety you engineer into it...the farther away you get from the environment in which the original skill sets are most relevant. The problem is doubled when you're talking about bladed weapons. It's one thing to make the decision to go out in a park and whack each other with heavy pieces of burned rattan. It's another thing to try and really experience the reality of the sword. But, I'm stating the obvious here, and you've handled a whole lot more live steel than I ever will so I know you understand the truth behind it. Bottom line...I don't think there's an ultimate solution to it. If anything, I feel your pain in the common realization that any effort to "make it competitive" just breeds a game that boils down to "I whacked you harder and more often" (that almost sounds dirty...LOL). Wish I could offer more. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest