Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 06:40:02 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #216 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Opinion on ATA (Thomas Gordon) 2. C Step/Sine wave (Robert Martin) 3. Multiple attacks (Rudy Timmerman) 4. Stovall on sparring - mother of all replies (A. Boyd) 5. Lee Yong Su (Barrie Restall) 6. Re: Sparring - the back (Nathan Miller) 7. RE: Opinion on ATA (Master Mark Seidel) 8. re: Opinion on ATA (Lasich, Mark D.) 9. Re: Rudy's promotion (ISA Headquarters) 10. Re: Opinions on the ATA (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 11. ATA (Boit Clinton L Capt 67 IOW/MO) 12. Re: 9th Dan!!!!!! Roast Rudy!!! (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 13. Use of Force Training (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Opinion on ATA Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 21:06:37 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Eric, What matters is that you are happy. I left ATA for my own reasons. Some stayed for the same reasons I left over. To each their own. Just read what you are getting into when presented with contracts and such. That's true with any contract. Best regards, Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Robert Martin" To: Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 22:02:38 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] C Step/Sine wave Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It was GM Park Jung Soo who demonstrated sparring technique in Denver. GM Park left the ITF and General Choi as sine wave was being developed. He sitl had (and has) many of his old karate habits. The man is hugely powerful in any case. For thoese of you that had Korean TKD instructors in the 1960's, they would not have done sine wave, may have had a bit of "spring style" but would mostly do things the same as Karate. It really wasn't until the late 1970's and early 1980's, I believe, that sine wave stated to be seen. Robert Martin --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 00:22:12 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Multiple attacks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Craig writes: > I can only speak for myself, but I think it would be extremely > interesting > to hear a couple of the stories. How did these situations arise, what > were > the techniques/tactics that manifested themselves, and what was the > ultimate > resolution? Probably some very valuable information to be shared here. Hello Craig: Over the years, I have had a number of altercations with multiple attackers, and I was pretty lucky to survive them without too much damage. I don't recommend sticking around to see what you can do, and I also advocate the running technique. Alas, sometimes this is not possible. When it is not, I have found it best to initiate the action, and I have always gone for the antagonist farthest away from me. I do this so I can keep moving from one to the other without giving them the chance to bunch up on me. The initial strike I used was most often the skipping front kick where I was able to cover a significant distance and create a bit of chaos. Past that, I have little memory of the techniques I used, as they seemed to come natural and without any thought. From bystanders accounts, I have used anything from chairs to throws to strikes as I moved about the scene. Not much info, but that is really all I can remember except for the fact that I have been badly cut by a broken beer bottle, and I never even knew it until the action was over. So it seems that Master Allison's idea of not worrying about the cut until things are done is quite appropriate. To stop and take care of the cut would no doubt have cost me dearly. One thing I have always tried to do was to break legs, as I feel much more comfortable knowing an attacker I have :"visited" does not come back for more. Most such fights I had were over in less than a minute, but it always seemed like there was no end. Another thing I noticed is that I often felt really tired afterward. Good thing to know, because being tired never was an issue until it was over; however, I would hate to have thought it was over and have made a mistake. I would have been too tired to begin again (I think). Seems like the adrenaline rush keeps you going while the action is on, but once used up it might be hard to defend yourself. Lucky for me I never had to test this. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 01:44:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Stovall on sparring - mother of all replies Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Craig wrote: Bottom line...I don't think there's an ultimate solution to it. If anything, I feel your pain in the common realization that any effort to "make it competitive" just breeds a game that boils down to "I whacked you harder and more often" (that almost sounds dirty...LOL). Wish I could offer more. _____________ Thanks for the reply. Sometimes, it's enough to receive assurance that others are on the same page. When I first started sparring, there were no points, no refs, and no competition. We would agree to go for a length of time, or until we had to stop. Once the 'match' was over we'd compare our sore spots and try to explain to each other what it was like to be on the receiving end of the other's attacks. I found it to be really helpful and I worked really hard to hit without being hit. We wore no armour at first, but this changed with the first injury. The Kwanjang-nim wouldn't allow us to spar without decent protection and without using juk-to. Personally, I hate juk-to but they are better than the alternative which was/is foam. The tactile response and effectiveness of a moggum was sooo much better. Not steel, but closer by about a bajillion light-years. We started using kendo armour which was all right, but put some serious restrictions on certain kinds of movement. It also made non-weapon attacks quite painful for the attacker. With or without armour we found that each session needed a long period of recovery. We were battering, cracking, cutting, and abrading our myriad unprotected targets and while it was fun, it made work, eating, sitting, etc. a real... uh... pain. A few years passed and then in 2002 a small group inside the HDGD Federation put together a suit of padded armour (www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo/hdgdarmour.html) which has been evolving a piece at a time into an acceptible means to spar regularly without buying stock in bandages, rubbing alcohol, and deep cold. The only problem with it is that we have to ban thrusts. From where I sit that's a huuuge problem, but that's another topic. Since 2002 we have been trying to drag those who like to spar out of the perceptual box of competitive kumdo/kendo and into something that brings out as much of our art as possible without, as Craig put it, having to find a place to hide the bodies. So, where things stand now is that only my ego need suffer if I take a hit. I have a monstrous ego so I am pretty concerned about that! In fact, I might be more concerned about it now than when all hits hurt and bled. (Will I start to think of those as the 'good old days'?) Most of my opponents from outside of my regular circle of partners, however, seem primarily concerned with the game-like elements such as winning, and maximizing the effect of the rules to their advantage. Being in a match against that type of 'player' saps my will to live. Ultimately, I realize that I do not enjoy competition, but the benefits of being required by a match to care about timing, and range, and assessment of the opposition are important to me at the moment. In a strange way I am grateful I have had the opportunity to deal with the clash of ideas that my view and this competitive view sets up, but when all is said and done, I don't want all of my sparring matches to involve this sort of thing. I'm happy when my opponent beats me based on superior sword skill and physical ability. I am happy when sparring makes difficult techniques 'click' in my head. I am unhappy when the rules keep the superior fighter from winning. I am unhappy when the rules actively prevent realism. I am unhappy when my opponent doesn't appreciate it if I earn a legitimate victory, and I am extremely unhappy when the nature of competition drags people away from the baseline behaviour (tenets) that we are supposed to be reinforcing by devoting time to a martial art. (Holy crap I am long-winded.) Anyway, to sum up, I will continue to participate and hopefully influence the development of this experiment, but I can't help wishing that compromises didn't always turn out to be such bad deals for everyone involved. ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Barrie Restall" To: Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 17:47:15 +1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Lee Yong Su Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray, I dont know what training GM Lee Yong Su did before he went to DJ Choi in 1973. I'll try and find out. DJ Kim Yun Sang previously trained in boxing, Tang So Do, Kom Do and was a hapkido student for 10 years under Chang Kae Do and reached 6th Degree. I think his certificates are from GM Ji Han Jae. (Is Chang Kae Do now in the USA?). DJ Kim is very careful as to whom he reveals his treasures. I suspect that as he does not have any interest in politics, rivalry or personal aggrandissement, he does not want to be seen to be 'exposing' or denigrating those whose claims may not be substantiated by the records, or starting any controversies. However in time I think we may see more of the historical stuff, including the photos. Regards, Barrie Restall --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 02:31:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Nathan Miller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Sparring - the back Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Heya Anthony... This is not really a problem in the current style/org that I am with - the kidney area on the back is a target area for punches, so if a person turns his back on an opponent, they get grabbed, and hit with several punches to the ribs and the back of the head. If you're turning you'd better be throwing something, or you'll get hit. When I first started studying TKD, at a USTA/ITA school, the back was strictly off limits. At tournaments, anyone intentionally turning the back was deducted one point, and I think disqualified if they did it again. In class, it was basically just a "Don't do that" kind of thing. This idea actually became so ingrained in my head that when I got into my first fight in high school, I halted my attack when the other kid turned his back. My TKD training left, my wrestling kicked in, and I grabbed him in a head lock and slung him over my hip. I then did nasty things to his face involving the locker, but that's neither here nor there. Unless you can figure out a way around it, it may be something you'll have to live with. Are there other target areas to exploit when this is done? The head, perhaps, undefended? On a completely unrelated note... Ran across an interesting article in a "martial arts professional's" magazine - one of those things that gets sent to you because suppliers sell your addresses. Anyway, there's a small article with a location line of Ocoee, FL, announcing that a local martial arts grandmaster has signed on for a role on a TV show, BANG TV or something like that. I kept the magazine specifically so that I could tell you the name of it... but now I can't find it... bah. Anyway, the show is apparently planned to run on Fox and UPN, if I remember correctly. I'll try to find the article and let y'all know more. Nathan > Message: 15 > Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 20:11:30 -0400 (EDT) > From: "A. Boyd" > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] More on sparring - the back > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > This question on sparring may have a broader > relevance to the members on the list: > > What sorts of things do you do to discourage the > abuse of turning attacks? By abuse,I > mean the competitor uses a spin or turn to hide > legitimate targets rather than to > generate power or gain some other form of legitmate > advantage. I am starting to suspect > that this sort of thing is just accepted as a > necessary evil. > > > > ===== > Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher > www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Master Mark Seidel" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Opinion on ATA Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 07:07:10 -0400 Organization: The Midtown Academy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Whether you learn side kick at white, yellow or even orange is not important, I for one decide on side kick after students have shown some mastery {used as an educational term only) of the more basic kicks. I have notice great differences in the schools of all organizations; it is really your Master/instructor/s that will make the difference not the organization. MM Master Mark Seidel Martial Arts /PE Program The Midtown Academy http://www.midtownacademy.org -----Original Message----- From: Ray Terry [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 9:53 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Opinion on ATA > I started my studies in tae kwon do on Dec. 1, 2003, and now hold the rank > of 7th-grade yellow belt in the ATA Songahm style. I've just joined this > list a few days ago, but now I see some people start to trash the > organization I've joined not too long ago. Of course, I don't have much > choice as to which style to study, as I live in a small town and the only > tae kwon do style I see taught within six counties is ATA Songahm. imho, what really matters is that you enjoy your introductory training, that you're challenged and that you reach your goals. Also consider politics... Kukkiwon people trash ITFers, and vice versa. Hwarang Do people trash Hapkido people, and vice versa. etc. Don't be overly concerned about it at this point. > I am enjoying my ATA training, but I'm wondering what some people have > against ATA. Eternal Grand Master H.U. Lee established this form of tae > kwon do because he felt organizations like WTF, ITF and others weren't > teaching the art the way they should. Umm... ATA marketing hype. He established the ATA to make money. Bottom line. > When I was reading into it at > www.ataonline.com, it seems EGM Lee felt doing side kicks, which in WTF is > an orange/white belt skill, should be done in the white belt level. Here the ATA took a page out of the ITF's book by establishing a clear and documented syllabus, i.e. exactly when you learn what. Very good when transfering to another school within the same org. As for the side kick, it will be taught at different levels at different Kukki-Taekwondo schools. (Calling them WTF schools isn't entirely accurate.) Enjoy your training! Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Lasich, Mark D." To: "Dojang (E-mail)" Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:12:54 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] re: Opinion on ATA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. VanSickle, Congratulations on starting, and enjoying your training. There are many, many martial arts organizations. In my opinion, there is no right and wrong - just different. Each art is its own path to the top of the same mountain ;-) I agree with Ray's observation: >Also consider politics... Kukkiwon people trash ITFers, and vice versa. >Hwarang Do people trash Hapkido people, and vice versa. etc. Don't be >overly concerned about it at this point. I firmly believe the whole thing is counter to the discipline and respect each organization attempts to instill in their own students. I am sure we've all laughed at those late night "my karate school is better than yours" themed movies, but hey some folks still like to act this way! Don't confuse this with honest discussion about organizational/technique differences - this helps us all learn and grow. As a fellow student of Songahm Taekwondo, sometimes it does feel like the ATA takes more than it's fair share of trashing. However, when you are close to something, perhaps things just appear that way! The ATA does not tend to share much about itself with the outside world: closed tournaments, copyrighted forms, lack of visibility in industry publications, etc......As with any mystery, people will fill in the blanks when they lack information. Sometimes they fill it in correctly, other times not! Do not doubt your choice, or your organization. Focus only on your training. You are learning, enjoying it, and growing in the community of martial arts. As long as you are getting out of it more than you are putting into it, I would say you are doing well. Congratulations once again, an exciting future awaits you as you learn and discover what you are capable of, and those challenges that require the perseverance to overcome. In the spirit, Mark --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "ISA Headquarters" To: Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:42:46 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Rudy's promotion Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Congratulations to you Rudy. Well deserved promotion. George --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:10:03 -0500 (CDT) From: To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Opinions on the ATA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Eric: ".....What do you guys think about the ATA (and its affiliates World Traditional Taekwondo Union and Songahm Taekwondo Federation)?....." You need to know that ATA really sucks and that it is organized and run by nothing but bad people!!! There now. You have gotten an outlandish observation by someone who will be the first to tell you that he knows not a bit about what he is speaking of. And since you are relatively new to this Net you probably couldn't know about all the stuff that has gone down in the last year in the Hapkido community. It may be however instructive in answering your question to take a page from that book of chaos. 1.) Various systems in the KMA are going to have good sides and bad sides. Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido, which I practice, has this and I'll bet that the ATA does too. Good or bad they are both sides of the same coin so I wouldn't try to practice my art so as to avoid one and have only the other. Take both sides face on. OK, so the ATA people are probably significantly more commercial than some. It may also be that because they are more commercial there are more schools to network with--- I don't know. 2.) Don't ask for peoples' opinions. People are going to like the most pathetic garbage in the KMA or studiously avoid the most celebrated art and nobody really knows how or why. If your Purpose is being served by sticking with the ATA right now, then give it everything you have. The Path is about YOU and not about the venue you choose. 3.) Allow yourself to make mistakes. You are still early in your KMA career. YOu have not made your commitment to a particular art or organization (Black Belt). You have quite a bit of time to make up your mind if the activity that you are involved in is for you or not. Maybe you are making a mistake, and maybe you are not. I don't know. But even if you ARE making a mistake you can always make it a "do over" and begin again. I didn't find my particular art (Hapkido)until I was 35-- a relatively older age to start off as a White belt. I'm 53 now and if I wanted to transition to another art that met my needs more I would probably start over again with Chen TCC. Then I would be a 53 y/o "white belt". Now you notice that I have not really given you an answer to your original question. Thats because I don't think you would really be well-served getting my opinion any more than you were helped with the outrageous comments I started this post with. If I were in your shoes I would be busting my a$$ to make my training truely mine and leave the value judgements go until such time (if ever) that your art isn't meeting your needs. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Boit Clinton L Capt 67 IOW/MO To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:14:53 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] ATA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Eric, First of all, just because a school is "WTF" affiliated doesn't mean they teach the same things or even has the same teaching philosophy. At my "WTF" school, we teach side kicks, backspins, spin crescents, etc. all at the white belt level. ATA is an organization that governs most of its school quite strictly (I suspect), where WTF has set requirements for Black Belt and doesn't care how you train your gups...as long as they meet the requirements for black belt. Also, WTF governs competition where the Kukkiwon issues the credentials. My personal thoughts on ATA are that 20 years ago, their students and black belts weren't good at their style. I viewed them on several occasions and thought they were sloppy and lacked high standards - very commercial. Now, I have had little contact with ATA. However, they are still viewed as a very commercial school (profits above all else). That just what I hear from people, and see when I drive by their schools. Lastly, I have had a few students drop out of my school in the past 15 years that go to ATA and obtain a black belt from them because it was easier (they told me that flat out).... Also - what's up with this thing I hear about ATA copyrighting their forms and that you can't practice them without their permission. Is this true? If so, I haven't heard of anything stupider than that in my marital arts career... Clint Boit American Institute of Taekwondo --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:21:23 -0500 (CDT) From: To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: 9th Dan!!!!!! Roast Rudy!!! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Oh goody!! Now we get to tear into Rudy!! OK, guy, I want facsimiles of ALL of your certs published on a website from 1st to 8th dan. It won't make any difference because I'm gonna trash your background anyhow!! Then I want a complete listing all of your teachers. That won't make any difference either cuz I probably won't know most of them and I won't be showing them any respect anyhow. Then I want a list of every single thing you have done to make the MA better and a complete confession of the darkest secrets you have regarding every bad thing. It doesn't matter what good you have done cuz I'm gonna ignore that. I just want to dig into all the dirt!! :-) :-) :-) Dear Rudy: I hope you know how great it is to hear that someone who actually deserves recognition and regard has gotten it, having earned it through hard work dedication as well as the respect of his students and peers. My very best wishes and congratulations for all that you have done and will do to make the KMA better. Respectfully, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 07:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Use of Force Training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarding... 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