Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 09:00:04 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #217 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Opinions about the ATA (Burdick, Dakin R) 2. ATA Opinion (David Weller) 3. USKMAF/Master Hilland (J R Hilland) 4. RE: Opinion on ATA (Stovall, Craig) 5. Re: Turning your back (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 6. Re: Knife Attacks (luke rose) 7. re: ATA (Lasich, Mark D.) 8. C-step / sine wave (Dave Steffen) 9. Yet more sine-wave (Dave Steffen) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 09:17:12 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Opinions about the ATA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Eric VanSickle asked about our opinions on the ATA. There's lots on that in the archives, but for what it's worth, here's mine again: The ATA is a well-organized family organization. IMHO it tends to charge a lot for rank, and emphasizes what I would call sport karate. The Songnahm forms are a neat innovation in the study of taekwondo, and incorporate a lot more kicks than other styles, so they make sense in teaching tkd. Personal digression -> That said, I'd have to say that they also don't teach much about fighting. Not that I think a lot of forms teach that stuff -- my students practice the Palgwae sets and last night I was trying to explain how I wanted them to do sonnal goduro makki (double knifehand guarding block). I was trying to explain that the chamber for the "block" was an inward strike to the nerves of the opponent's arm, and that the the "block" itself was a knockout strike on the neck. My students pointed out that "that's not how it looks like in the form," which then spawned a 15 minute explanation on why we do forms and why we practice OTHER things in class besides forms as well. Back to the ATA -> IMHO it is a well-organized sport form of tkd, but that means it emphasizes high kicks (leading to knee and lower back damage) and does not teach people to fight very well (but then, most tkd doesn't). Which is why after doing TKD for 23 years, and teaching kid's tkd for 17 years, I find myself doing more and more hapkido. One more thing to remember -- what is your instructor like? If you like him or her, that makes a BIG difference. Don't go pick another martial art with a cruddy instructor. Keep the art, instructors, and the other students in mind when you make any decision. Take care, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: David Weller Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 09:34:25 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] ATA Opinion Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. VanSickle, I've only seen a couple of ATA folks in my short career in TKD. I saw nothing inherently wrong or odd about their techniques. As Master Terry noted, politics plays a HUGE role in the little bickering matches you see about "my style this and your style sucks". Most of it boils down to pettiness and ego. If your training is fulfilling for YOU, then keep it up as long as it has meaning for you and brings joy (and sweat and soreness) to your life. When that ceases, it's time to look around for something different. Like you, I train at the ONLY school in my little town. Nothing in the way of martial arts within an hours drive. So I train where I train. Luckily, my teacher(s) are wonderful men who look at Martial Arts as a way of life and inject their hearts and souls into teaching. I'd love to learn an art like Hapkido (as a green belt in Judo from my college days, I have a certain fondness for being slammed onto a mat) but there is no Hapkido within 100 miles that I am aware of. But it's not because I am unhappy with what I have learned and what I am learning, it's just something different that I would like to try. I think the bottom line, which many on this list have said before, is that it is not so much the art you study, but the person who teaches you. A good teacher could make flower arranging into a formidable Martial style, a rotten teacher can turn the greatest system on earth into a bad joke. I've never noticed the side kick not being taught at white belt level. In our school that is one of the "basic" kicks we learn from the get go... the "step behind side kick" (from horse stance rear leg steps behind front, side kick executed with the front leg) is generally the first breaking technique we use. We teach the rear leg side kick to white belts, shoot, we even teach the back turning side kick to white belts, although decent technique is not generally seen until green belt. Anyhow, congratulations on beginning the journey of Martial Discovery, I hope you find much to enrich your life ! dave weller On Apr 30, 2004, at 5:01 AM, Eric VanSickle wrote: > From: "Eric VanSickle" > To: "The Dojang" > Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 20:32:11 -0500 > Subject: [The_Dojang] Opinion on ATA > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Greetings: > > I started my studies in tae kwon do on Dec. 1, 2003, and now hold the > rank > of 7th-grade yellow belt in the ATA Songahm style. I've just joined > this > list a few days ago, but now I see some people start to trash the > organization I've joined not too long ago. Of course, I don't have > much > choice as to which style to study, as I live in a small town and the > only > tae kwon do style I see taught within six counties is ATA Songahm. I > was > introduced briefly to WTF tae kwon do in a self-defense course for PE > credit > in college. > > I am enjoying my ATA training, but I'm wondering what some people have > against ATA. Eternal Grand Master H.U. Lee established this form of > tae > kwon do because he felt organizations like WTF, ITF and others weren't > teaching the art the way they should. When I was reading into it at > www.ataonline.com, it seems EGM Lee felt doing side kicks, which in > WTF is > an orange/white belt skill, should be done in the white belt level. > > What do you guys think about the ATA (and its affiliates World > Traditional > Taekwondo Union and Songahm Taekwondo Federation)? > > Eric VanSickle > 7th-grade Yellow Belt (Decided) (ATA) > Britt, Iowa --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 09:47:48 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] USKMAF/Master Hilland Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am glad to hear that your leaving the ATA has not been unpleasant and that you can still associate with all the friends you made during your time with them. With Murphy's Law as a universal constant, I was not that fortunate. :) Jere R. Hilland www.rrhapkido.com www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 09:56:42 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Opinion on ATA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> First off, welcome aboard. Second, enjoy what you're doing and don't sweat the critics. I'm not the ATA's most prolific cheerleader, nor will you find me posting all over the Net and criticizing their every move. I guess I can offer a few points that I've gathered as to "why people dog the ATA". Keep in mind...this is not an indictment on my part. It's a combination of things that people have told me in regard to the ATA (their perceptions, beliefs and opinions), as well as my own observations. I won't differentiate between the two...just accept this "analysis" as an attempt to answer your question as objectively as possible. 1. Time in grade seems to be short - personally I wish I had a nickel for every ATA back belt that I've met...cuz there seems to be a TON of them out there. Also, it is generally perceived that time in grades are much shorter than the "industry average" (define that one). It is not uncommon to meet an ATA black belt that got graded after two years (or less) of training. To my way of thinking (read: programming), that process should take a minimum of three to four years. I think you'll find a lot of people that share my way of thinking. Nothing "right" about it...just the general consensus. Opinions vary greatly on this point. 2. Technical proficiency - I know I've met more than a few ATA black belts that did not impress me in the least. In fact, it would be closer to the truth to say that I've met FEW ATA BB's that impressed me. They are out there, but they seem to be the minority. In truth, I've been involved with an instructor who regularly produced green belts that could run circles around 90% of the ATA black belts that I've met. Others will avail you of stories of ATA BB's coming to train at their schools, and the ATA'er couldn't even perform proper kick chambering, had weak stances, etc. You'll find this in ANY org's black belts, but the reference to this phenomenon in regard to ATA BB's seems more common and is enough to have constructed a general thought pattern in regards to your org's technical base. 3. Tough guy syndrome - there are more than a few of us out there that still go for the old "blood and guts" training. I think it was Bruce who said I "only value the rough-and-tumble". Alas. At any rate, I think it's safe to say that you won't see a lot of pug noses and cauliflower ears when you walk into the typical ATA training environment. You're much more likely to encounter bright shining faces on a very diverse backdrop in terms of ages, gender, fitness levels, etc. Personally, I have no problem with that, but the "hard" crowd will always judge this to be "soft". If it's any consolation, TKD in GENERAL does not have the greatest rep right now amongst it's Japanese/Okinawan cousins. I've heard the unfortunate term "sissy art" laid upon TKD on more than one occasion by the typical Japanese karate player. I guess you guys are considered by them to be the "sissies of the sissies". No matter...we all train for different reasons, and in the world of the gun none of us are a match for the average 16-year-old gangbanger no matter how hardcore we think we train. 4. The commercial angle - the ATA will always be seen as a commercial venture first, and a martial arts organization second. That's just the general consensus, and I don't see it changing any time soon. The "truth" behind that perception is moot. Just be aware that this is how your peers outside the ATA view your org regardless of how things really stack up in the world. 5. Closed tournament stigma - I won't go into the pros and cons of closed tourney's because I can see and understand the points of both sides. Suffice it to say that there are more than a few people out there that are convinced you guys are "hiding from something". Again, the truth doesn't matter...it's the rep that counts. When you guys start tearing up the open tournament scene I guess that will change. Until such time, your closed tournaments are a source for raised eyebrows. 6. Contracts - Oy vey...you either love contracts or hate them. The people that hate them view your org as the main proliferator of this practice, and the reason that more and more instructors are having to resort to this practice whether they like it or not. The commercial angle and contracts kind of go hand-in-hand, but the contract issue is big enough to deserve it's own bullet point. Suffice it to say, the ATA is synonymous with contracts, lots of people hate contracts, and it doesn't take Freud to figure out the rest. 7. Player haters - Hey...let's not make any bones about it. Some people hate the ATA just because they're the biggest and the most successful martial arts org in the world. Nothing breeds envy like success, and we all know what goes hand-in-hand with envy. 8. Protech, et al - Lots of people don't like your weapons, joint locking, ground fighting courses, etc. I guess it's perceived as a "we have that in our art too" strategy as opposed to really trying to bring quality martial material to the members. Most outsiders would use the terms "watered down" or "bastardized" in regards to your stick stuff and the ground grappling. Again, there's the truth, and then there's people's opinions. That's just the general opinion. Now that I have systematically removed every last ounce of your self-estemm...LOL. Look...please, please, please DO NOT take this offering as the gospel truth, and I sure as heck hope you don't take this as what I think about the ATA. Some of it...yes. But, not all of it. I'm just trying to give you a glimpse inside the minds of the critics, because I have certainly met more than a few in my time. I hope your training makes you happy, and that you continue to grow with the ATA for as long as they can provide a positive environment for you. If not, I hope an opportunity comes along that is more in line with your particular wants and needs. I know a lot of people (good martial artists) that are happy within the ATA. In the end, what you get out of the process is more dependent upon what YOU put into it rather than the general state of your org. For example, I know plenty of people that train under great instructors...and somehow none of that greatness seems to rub off. Think about it. Craig "Don't Be Hatin'" Stovall CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 09:53:13 -0500 (CDT) From: To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Turning your back Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Nathan: ".....This is not really a problem in the current style/org that I am with - the kidney area on the back is a target area for punches, so if a person turns his back on an opponent, they get grabbed, and hit with several punches to the ribs and the back of the head. If you're turning you'd better be throwing something, or you'll get hit....." This is an issue that comes up quite a bit in Hapkido. The rule of thumb is that solid Hapkido technique ought be accomplished well whether done fast or slow. I have been to more than a few places where a person will say that the technique can only be done fast as it otherwise allows the kidneys and heart area to be targeted. At that point a red light goes on in my head. The well known Firemans Throw and Reversed Firemans Throw come to mind. Excuted by grabbing the wrong arm, the technique almost begs the attacker being thrown to drop a fist into the kidney or drop a forearm across the back of the defenders' neck. GM Ji showed the technique with an additional torque to the wrist-- perhaps to address this possibility (?). However, grabbing the correct wrist (straight grab for Firemans' and cross-grab for Reversed Firemans) precludes the strike and keep the defender from being vulnerable and to me makes the additional torque worthwhile but not altogether necessary. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:04:15 -0700 (PDT) From: luke rose To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Knife Attacks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net James wrote: If only the scenarios on the street were always head on it would be easy to defend against any kind of attack. But what most martial artist lack is dealing with situations that are not ideal. When you add in Murphy's Law and try to prepare for the unknown you have a better chance of survival. Respectfully, James Allison Hapkido Sun Moo Kwan I could not agree more James. To prepare myself for the "unknown" I try to be aware of everything. Now I am not saying that I will ever get there because I won't. However, The more I try to broaden or expand my focus easier it gets. A great way to do that is when I'm teaching a class. Trying to watch everyone do a different form and keep track of every movement was difficult at first, but the more I practiced the better it became. Now I realize that is simply visual tracking. Yet the key here is that it is multi-tasking. After visual I began working on other senses as well and then I incorporated each sense together. Much the same as learning how to punch. You know, technique, power, speed and all the other things. You learn them in segments and then incorporate the segments together. I could go on about this for ever so I will just come to a basic yet incredibly hard to reach point. BALANCE. For me it is negotiating between my over critical and analytical mind with frustrated induced laziness. If I can just hit that state of "being" and quit forcing things it is amazing what I can accomplish. Luke --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Lasich, Mark D." To: "Dojang (E-mail)" Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 11:15:40 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] re: ATA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Clint Boit wrote: >Also - what's up with this thing I hear about ATA copyrighting their forms >and that you can't practice them without their permission. Is this true? I would imagine that anyone can practice anything they wish to practice. >From what I understand, the copyrighting governs who can *instruct* another student on the Songahm forms. This practice is to keep the teaching of those forms within the ATA, with the thought that the ATA then govens the quality of instruction (instructors must be recertified every three years), and can pass on any modifications that may happen to the forms (I know the green belt form is different today than when I learned it in 1986). In the spirit, Mark --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Dave Steffen Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 09:51:58 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Cc: tkd-physics@comcast.net Subject: [The_Dojang] C-step / sine wave Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Folks, I must congratulate you on your timing - this whole thread showed up just as I'm taking a day off of my normally hectic schedule to take part. ;-) First, on the stepping thing: Compared to what some Karate people do, our stepping might look very straight line; but it's not. Halfway through the stepping motion, the stepping foot is slightly off the ground, and reasonably close to the supporting leg - it looks, actually, like a "normal" human (not many of those around here) taking a normal, walking step, plus or minus some extra bend in the supporting knee. There are exceptions, of course, but generally we do a less-extreme C-step-ish thing. > From: "Burdick, Dakin R" [...] > Thanks for the information Chris. I know we appreciate detailed > information on what different instructors said about a particular > move. In my experience, the C-step is there so that one is not > double-weighted (weight in two legs) during a move. If one is > single-weight, it is easier to change direction quickly. Half way > through the step, one can decide to instead step back, or to move > the other leg forward or back, or to fire off a kick, etc. Insteresting point, I'd never really thought about it. Proper sine-wave is definitely single-weighted during the move, as the moving foot is either completely off the ground, or (in some variants) brushing along the ground ever so lightly. > The head staying level seems largely to be the influence of the > Japanese, who stress hip action more than hydraulic up and down > action with the legs. Yeah, traditional Karate (of just about every flavor, AFAIK) demands a level head... no puns intended. See below... [...] > From: "Burdick, Dakin R" > Ok, the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, so > a sine wave hit won't be the fastest. It may, however, hit harder. > It is kind of a like a wind-up in a way. It takes longer, but hits > harder, not least of which because you can use all your weight in > it. Why did Gen. Choi eventually dislike it? I'm a little confused here: you mean, I presume, that the General didn't like the Karate straight line, yes? > Well, I understand he didn't have a lot of weight, right? So he > would want a system that worked better for a smaller man, which > will require speed and hitting vital points. Yes indeed, this is why the sine wave was developed in the first place. > But for a big guy, a sine wave might make a lot of sense. Get in > close, sine wave him, and level that quick little dude. :) We do > teach our students differently, don't we? Everyone has a different > style and body type. I have the opposite idea; big dudes don't need the sine wave so much, little guys need it more. Evidence: we had a 3rd Dan who stood 6'6" and weighed about 260 - big dude! His sine wave was (relatively) very small, as he couldn't keep up with everyone else otherwise, and he still had _loads_ of power. He was known for breaking not only the boards in the board holder, but the board holder too! On the other hand, smaller guys like GM Hwang and my instructor, Mr. Roena, are smaller (GM Hwang's short, and Mr. Roena is very lightly built) prefer big sine waves - GM Hwang had tsunamis going on when he got serious. :-) >From my brief-but-intense experience with Karate (Wado-Ryu, with Sadaharu Kurobane Sensei, if anyone knows who and what that is), I can attest that my upper-body strength and mass helped me a _lot_. Not that you need it - Kurobane Sensei isn't at all bulky, but he's definitely more sturdily built than the General was. I can see the General getting frustrated with the Karate straight-line-is-shortest approach, simply because he had so little mass and shoulder musculature to put behind it. The sine-wave _is_ unquestionably a sort of extended wind-up, and is "slower" in some sense. In the speed-vs-power engineering trade-off that all martial arts make, the sine-wave is way over on the power side of things, which is insane from the Karate viewpoint (Karate being, generally, way over on the speed end). The crucial point being, as I hinted in my last post, that the _full_, long, big, odd-looking sinewave motion isn't really what you do in sparring. It's a pedagogical construction, designed to make it as easy as possible for students to get the feel of generating power - arguably, the single most difficult and important thing students need to learn. Kurobane Sensei told me (approximately) "First, learn to be fast. Power will come through your speed". I think the sine wave is just the opposite - "First, learn to generate power. Speed will come from that power". All the over-exaggeration that Mr. Martin referred to recently is just to get the student to feel the body producing power. Once you've got that, you don't really _need_ the whole sine wave thing. It's a scaffolding to build the structure - once the structure's built, you don't really need the scaffolding. Once you take the scaffolding down, I thing you end up with something very much, but not exactly, like the Karate thing. > From: "C. Bonner" >            The instructor's the General sent over here in the 60's, > did the c-step. Or at least the one's i have been around. Also, no > sine wave.       Clint Yes, as Mr. Martin has pointed out, the sine-wave didn't appear until late seventies or mid eighties - I gather it depended on geography, I don't think the USA saw it until the mid eighties. Some of us old-timers remember "spring style" techniques, I think they were either a precursor to the sine wave, or actually the sine wave taught by people who hadn't quite figured it out yet. :-) My personal theory (of which I have a lot) is that the sine-wave is such a tremendous break from the General's Shoin Ryu background, that it took him a while to A) convince himself and his closest students that it was a good idea, B) figure out how to formalize it, C) figure out how to teach it, and D) start convincing all the rest of the ITF to do it. Personally, I came to the sine-wave as a 4th Dan, after spending 6 months under Kurobane Sensei's loving, and _very very fast_ hand. I absolutely _hated_ the sine-wave for about a year, at which point I figured out what it was for and actually got it to work for me. Now I love it, and can't stop doing it if I wanted to. (My Okinawan weapons instructor used to get very frustrated with my bouncing up and down. "Steffen-san, stop rocking the boat!") -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Dave Steffen, Ph.D. Wave after wave will flow with the tide Raytheon IIS And bury the world as it does tkd-physics@comcast.net Tide after tide will flow and recede Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Dave Steffen Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 10:04:38 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Cc: tkd-physics@comcast.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Yet more sine-wave Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: "Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy" [...] > Yes, I guess it could allow the executioner of the technique to hit > harder. A _lot_ harder, BTW. > But, I'm a believer that speed along with the proper hip rotation > can also generate just as much power. So why not move in a > straight line in order to get there and execute it faster? In fact, I don't think that the sine-wave is any slower in the "get there" sense. Vertical motion is independent of horizontal motion, plus or minus issues with the human gait (which is phenomenally complicated). The sine wave _might_ actually generate more forward velocity (probably not much). What _is_ slow about the sine-wave is the _telegraphing_. Compared to the usual Karate-ish movement, you can see a sine-wave technique coming miles off. Which is why I'm convinced it's just a teaching tool. In sparring, you just use the very tail end of the sine wave, which looks almost exactly like a Wado-Ryu technique, except the chamber's a bit different (closer to the target - faster!), and there's a bit more of a body-drop. By the way, expert Karate people do sine-wavish things sometimes, although they don't call it that. Some of my black belt students and I were at a sparring seminar given by Igaki Sensei (don't know his first name), the USANKF team coach -- good lord, his footwork was beautiful. But, guess what? After giving us the usual "straight line is fastest" thing (my students and I exchanged looks), he started doing actual sparring footwork. From a more upright stance, the lead leg would extend as the lead punch came out (longer stance, lower center-of-mass), then the back leg would come in (lifting him up), then the lead leg would go out again as the reverse punch hit at slightly less than the speed of light. Guess what? As he moved across the floor like that, his head was smoothly moving up and down in an almost perfect sine wave. On a fundamental (and maybe instinctive level), he knew more about the sine wave than I did. > I can see both sides though. IMHO, both are right. Like Master > Hodder would say "Don't empty your cup. Just get another cup!" Personally, my _bucket_ overfloweth! ;-) ;-) Swimming pool, anybody? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Dave Steffen, Ph.D. Wave after wave will flow with the tide Raytheon IIS And bury the world as it does tkd-physics@comcast.net Tide after tide will flow and recede Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest