Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 11:40:03 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #218 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. C Step/Sine wave (Dave Steffen) 2. Re: Opinion on ATA (Yuribeast@aol.com) 3. Re: suppliers selling addresses (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 4. ITA opinions (Patrick Baeder) 5. It does work (Charles Richards) 6. Re: More on sparring- the back (luke rose) 7. Excitement (Charles Richards) 8. Re: Opinion on ATA (Eric VanSickle) 9. Re: re: Opinion on ATA (Eric VanSickle) 10. Sine wave ad infinitum (Burdick, Dakin R) 11. ata (Eddie Urbistondo) 12. Promotion (Rudy Timmerman) 13. Congrats (Rudy Timmerman) 14. Sine Wave...Various and Sundry (Stovall, Craig) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Dave Steffen Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 10:08:56 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] C Step/Sine wave Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: "Robert Martin" > > It was GM Park Jung Soo who demonstrated sparring technique in > Denver. GM Park left the ITF and General Choi as sine wave was > being developed. He sitl had (and has) many of his old karate > habits. The man is hugely powerful in any case. Ah, right, thanks. Rats, I thought I had a really good data point to back up my pet theory. :-) > For thoese of you that had Korean TKD instructors in the 1960's, > they would not have done sine wave, may have had a bit of "spring > style" but would mostly do things the same as Karate. It really > wasn't until the late 1970's and early 1980's, I believe, that sine > wave stated to be seen. Yup. Because of some rather-more-extreme-than-usual political travails, I didn't come across the sine-wave until late 1993, right after learning how to _really_ punch from Kurobane Sensei. This caused me no end of grief for a year or so, when I figured out how to reconcile the sine-wave with Kurobane Sensei's Wado-Ryu. I've been happy with my (slighly unorthodox) sine-wave ever since. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Dave Steffen, Ph.D. Wave after wave will flow with the tide Raytheon IIS And bury the world as it does tkd-physics@comcast.net Tide after tide will flow and recede Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Yuribeast@aol.com Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 12:09:54 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Opinion on ATA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 4/30/2004 3:47:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: What do you guys think about the ATA (and its affiliates World Traditional Taekwondo Union and Songahm Taekwondo Federation)? Are we gonna get into another 20 day thread arguing about the virtues of ATA vs WTF again? Seems there's better things to do. Besides one can always read back through the old message threads right? Barry --__--__-- Message: 3 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 12:15:23 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: suppliers selling addresses Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net nathan wrote: Ran across an interesting article in a "martial arts professional's" magazine - one of those things that gets sent to you because suppliers sell your addresses. hi nathan, i know this has nothing to do with the point of your post. just need to state that not all suppliers do this. some, like us, actually have a very strict privacy policy to protect our customers and dont give out your personal information. take care, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Patrick Baeder Organization: Auburn Academy of Martial Arts, LLC To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 12:22:12 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] ITA opinions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I run a small school in Auburn, Alabama. My only professional/commercial competitor is an ITA/TaeKwonDo Plus school. What are the general opinions of this school/system? I am not looking for a "bash fest" or bad mouthing of the ITA, I just am curious what are their strenghts and weaknesses. Thanks for help and insite, Patrick Baeder --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 09:29:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] It does work Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read "...I think the key to any defensive action, especially against a knife: will you be able to keep your self together mentally to deal with the attacker after they have cut you? I just recently had one of the Sheriff deputies I train get cut in an altercation in a crack house. He had already taken down two suspects when a third slashed at him cutting his face. Once the knife cleared him he rushed the guy and took him down with an arm bar. In this case had he reacted to the cut and stopped to check his wound he would have been cut again. The key here was not to stop but to stop the attacker from cutting him again. " Just a few comments 1. A tribute to Master Allison's program that in addition to teaching the myriad of techniques, his students gain the mental/spiritual strength to "walk through the fire.." 2. I agree, stopping to go "oh $h*t" I'm cutt would be the last thought to cross your mind before getting cutt again and possibly maimed. 3. If this is the sheriff I think it is, his armbar would stop anything on this planet that has a pulse (firsthand experience). 4. Due to the above mentioned inner strength (and hapkido skills) this sheriff has made numerous "high risk" arrests and is the kindest player on the matt, always willing to help juniors with things he has learned in the last decade and a half training with Master Allison. 5. This is a good example of "this technique/art does work." When active in his Sun Moo Kwan, Master Allison would remind us that it wasn't Hapkido that was flawed, but the player or their knowledge of a particular technique. If you study any technique with qualified instruction and enough rice eating (practice) you can make any art/technique work. Good to see you post on the DD and hope all is going well for you and your students! Respectfully, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com inactive HKDSMK __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 09:45:04 -0700 (PDT) From: luke rose To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: More on sparring- the back Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Anthony Boyd wrote: This question on sparring may have a broader relevance to the members on the list: "What sorts of things do you do to discourage the abuse of turning attacks? By abuse,I mean the competitor uses a spin or turn to hide legitimate targets rather than to generate power or gain some other form of legitmate advantage. I am starting to suspect that this sort of thing is just accepted as a necessary evil." My response is: Hit him in the back of the head, shove your knee into his tail bone, bust his knee, and finally choke him out while kicking him in the groin with your heels. Just kidding. In all seriousness, I find people have their own points of view. So, in a humble and respectful way present your view to the person and discuss or debate. Maybe he does not realize that you view it as you do. If you find that he is just trying to hide behind sparring rules then do not oblige him. When he turns his back simply stand and wait for him to return to a more active posture. My guess is that when he does this over and over he will become frustrated or possibly embarrassed. An experience I have had was when I would go to Karate tournaments. A lot of them were taught that when they faced off with a tkd guy they should kick them in the groin because tkd people were known to lift that leg up for kicks quite often. So therefore the Karate guys were taking away the tkd guys primary weapon and of course leaving them with a pain like no other. After a few of those, I had enough and decided to punch straight down with the opposite hand of the leg kicking. The result was usually bruised insteps of the competitor. After a couple of those they did not want to kick anymore and all of the sudden the advantage was mine. Now don't misunderstand, I did not punch the foot but merely let their foot run into my knuckles. There is always a way to adapt to a situation. Finding it though can be difficult when you're right up on the situation. To me it's like playing billiards. When someone else is shooting and you are observing from afar it is easy to see if the shot being lined up or in the process of proceeding to the hole will go in or not. However, lining up yourself and shooting is a another story. That is why other people's views or advice can be a wonderful thing, but be careful of advice for they may have you put the wrong english on the ball and suddenly you are no where near your original line or even side of the table. Even worse you may scratch or put one of his balls in. I try to always assimilate the things I don't know with the things I do. Thanks for your post. It got the old brain going. I hope at least some of what I said makes a little sense for you. Have a wonderful day, Luke --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 09:46:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Excitement Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read "...but I could no longer hold in my excitement. I hope SJN does not mind (and will correct me if I miss quote) spreading the news of some of the other great things that happened for himself, SBN Lorne Keatley and the NKMAA. 1st - Kong Shin BupTM was recognized as an official kwan by the World Kido Federation. 2nd - Master Rudy Timmerman was awarded his well deserved 9th dahn. CONGRATULATIONS!!!! again Sir. 3rd - SBN Lorne Keatley's sparring match ended in a tie and there was a 4 minute sudden death match to call a winner. I know I am not the person who should spread this news, but as I said I am very excited about these events and wish I had been there to witness them in person." Dear Kat, I can still remember they joy and pride for GM Hodder receiving his 8th Dan in Jackson. These are great accomplishments and I too am proud and happy for SJN! I'm sure there are other listmembers that have been to either a NKMAA or USKMAF event with SJN that would be upset if they couldn't share in the joy! SJN, I too am excited for you and wish you well in all your future efforts. Be Well, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Eric VanSickle" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Opinion on ATA Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 12:11:32 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Gordon: So far, I haven't been faced with a contract. That might be true when I get into the black belts, but as I said, I'm only a yellow decided. What kind of contract are you referring? Eric ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 9:06 PM Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Opinion on ATA > Eric, > > What matters is that you are happy. I left ATA for my own reasons. > Some stayed for the same reasons I left over. To each their own. > > Just read what you are getting into when presented with contracts and > such. That's true with any contract. > > Best regards, > > Thomas Gordon > Florida > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Eric VanSickle" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] re: Opinion on ATA Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 12:17:11 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Lasich: Thanks for your reply. I'm not doubting ATA at all. I'm just worried about the backlash people have given the ATA, especially the information the one gentleman said when he left ATA for another organization. If I was doing this when I was younger, I probably would have wanted to eventually try for Olympic TKD sparring. I know the ATA is offering Olympic certification, but how many ATA practitioners get into Olympic-style rather than or along with ATA-style sparring? Eric ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lasich, Mark D." To: "Dojang (E-mail)" Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 7:12 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] re: Opinion on ATA > Mr. VanSickle, > > Congratulations on starting, and enjoying your training. There are many, many martial arts organizations. In my opinion, there is no right and wrong - just different. Each art is its own path to the top of the same mountain ;-) > > I agree with Ray's observation: > >Also consider politics... Kukkiwon people trash ITFers, and vice versa. > >Hwarang Do people trash Hapkido people, and vice versa. etc. Don't be > >overly concerned about it at this point. > I firmly believe the whole thing is counter to the discipline and respect each organization attempts to instill in their own students. I am sure we've all laughed at those late night "my karate school is better than yours" themed movies, but hey some folks still like to act this way! Don't confuse this with honest discussion about organizational/technique differences - this helps us all learn and grow. > > As a fellow student of Songahm Taekwondo, sometimes it does feel like the ATA takes more than it's fair share of trashing. However, when you are close to something, perhaps things just appear that way! > > The ATA does not tend to share much about itself with the outside world: closed tournaments, copyrighted forms, lack of visibility in industry publications, etc......As with any mystery, people will fill in the blanks when they lack information. Sometimes they fill it in correctly, other times not! > > Do not doubt your choice, or your organization. Focus only on your training. You are learning, enjoying it, and growing in the community of martial arts. As long as you are getting out of it more than you are putting into it, I would say you are doing well. > > Congratulations once again, an exciting future awaits you as you learn and discover what you are capable of, and those challenges that require the perseverance to overcome. > > In the spirit, > Mark > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 12:26:13 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Sine wave ad infinitum Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Cool! A good argument with Dave Steffen! :) I wrote: > Ok, the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, so > a sine wave hit won't be the fastest. It may, however, hit harder. > It is kind of a like a wind-up in a way. It takes longer, but hits > harder, not least of which because you can use all your weight in > it. Why did Gen. Choi eventually dislike it? Dave wrote: I'm a little confused here: you mean, I presume, that the General didn't like the Karate straight line, yes? I wrote; Nope -- sorry about the confusion. I'm saying Gen. Choi didn't like the sine curve, based on the post to that effect (author unknown - sorry!). Dave wrote: I have the opposite idea; big dudes don't need the sine wave so much, little guys need it more. I wrote: Gotta disagree. That seems too simplistic of an argument. Let's prioritize needs first. The little guys need more power, BUT they need speed even more, which will not only allow them to get in and out without losing a vital portion of their anatomy, but also because f=ma. Right? The big guy really needs more speed too, but when he needs a sine wave sort of wind up is in close. He closes, grabs the poor little sucker, yields to give himself some slack and then plasters the guy. Does he need to do it? No, probably not. Will he do it? Sure. Because he trains to fight in close (unless he's worried about Ray coming around with a knife!) and therefore needs to practice creating space for himself and taking it away from his opponent. Dave wrote: >I can see the General getting frustrated with the Karate straight-line-is-shortest approach, simply because he had so little mass and shoulder musculature to put behind it. My reply: So here's the crux of the problem. Who was it that posted that Gen. Choi didn't like the sine wave movement, and do you agree with him? Dave wrote: All the over-exaggeration that Mr. Martin referred to recently is just to get the student to feel the body producing power. Once you've got that, you don't really _need_ the whole sine wave thing. It's a scaffolding to build the structure - once the structure's built, you don't really need the scaffolding. My reply: Yep. A couple people have mentioned this already. The movement becomes smaller when you are not demonstrating it and you know what you are doing. Dave wrote: My Okinawan weapons instructor used to get very frustrated with my bouncing up and down. "Steffen-san, stop rocking the boat!" My reply: You've gotta learn to separate those arts! :) One interesting note here (ears up Bruce!) would be: "is the head kept level because the technique derives from Southern Chinese gongfu?" Remember that a lot of those Chinese opera groups trained on the river while going to their next gig? How's that for a half-baked idea? :) Dave also wrote: In fact, I don't think that the sine-wave is any slower in the "get there" sense. Vertical motion is independent of horizontal motion, plus or minus issues with the human gait (which is phenomenally complicated). The sine wave _might_ actually generate more forward velocity (probably not much). My reply: But Dave! You just wrote: "The sine-wave _is_ unquestionably a sort of extended wind-up, and is "slower" in some sense. In the speed-vs-power engineering trade-off that all martial arts make, the sine-wave is way over on the power side of things, which is insane from the Karate viewpoint (Karate being, generally, way over on the speed end)." Also, I think gait comes into any consideration of walking! :) So, since my opinion is as good as yours (barring any research), I'll take the opposing side. Losers pays for a drink when we finally meet up! Dave then wrote: What _is_ slow about the sine-wave is the _telegraphing_. Compared to the usual Karate-ish movement, you can see a sine-wave technique coming miles off. Which is why I'm convinced it's just a teaching tool. My reply: But if you are in a grappling situation, you won't see that wind up. But you sure will feel it. Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com PS: I empty my cup by having my students beat me up. Your mileage may vary! --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Eddie Urbistondo" To: Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 10:44:06 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] ata Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Eternal Grand Master of business. No offense to any ATA people on the list, but the facts are the facts. Ask the people in your school if you can attend ANY other TKD tournament and see what they say....One reason they promote only ATA tournaments is so the student can't see or compare themselves to others in the TKD world. If there are no other schools/styles near you, then continue to enjoy yourself. Master Eddie Urbistondo --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 14:52:30 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Promotion Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net James writes: > congratulations on your promotion! You are truly an inspiration to > all. To make it to the top of the Dan Mountain must be quite a thrill. Hello James et all: Thanks for the congrats. I had hoped to keep a lid on this, as the only reason for the rank was my desire to have the Kong Shin Bup art recognized in Korea as a last tribute to my late Instructor. As far as I know, the dahn rank is part and parcel of that process, and that process is not quite completed yet. I truly appreciate GM Seo's generosity in making this possible; however, I am still the same old (and somewhat decrepit) man, and nothing has changed. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 15:01:41 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Congrats Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > Oh goody!! Now we get to tear into Rudy!! > > OK, guy, I want facsimiles of ALL of your certs published on a website > from 1st to 8th dan. It won't make any difference because I'm gonna > trash > your background anyhow!! Hello Bruce: I placed a timeline on the DD not long ago, and perhaps that will suffice for now while I'm still recuperating from the trip:) In the meantime, see what you did to me Kat:) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 14:09:40 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sine Wave...Various and Sundry Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ok, I think I'm getting the gist of this. However, I wanted to tease out a few points from Dr. Steffen's excellent post. <<>> Ok, first of all...I don't know JACK about physics, except what I remember from a few sober moments in college and what little I've gleaned from watching 'Star Trek' (does that even count). Now, when you boil it down to the absolute essentials here, aren't we really talking about the generation of "Force" (I know we martial artists always like to talk about "power")? If 'Force' equals 'Mass' times 'Acceleration' (help me out here Doc), then I'm guessing that the Sine Wave motion is intended to manipulate the 'Mass' component of the equation? Is that right, or am I missing it altogether? In other words, by putting my body in a "controlled free fall" on the tail end of the Sine Wave, more of my mass is brought into the strike as I let gravity do at least a part of its dirty work. At least, that's how I'm conceiving it on an intuitive level. Please help me out here. <<From a more upright stance, the lead leg would extend as the lead punch came out (longer stance, lower center-of-mass), then the back leg would come in (lifting him up), then the lead leg would go out again as the reverse punch hit at slightly less than the speed of light. Guess what? As he moved across the floor like that, his head was smoothly moving up and down in an almost perfect sine wave. On a fundamental (and maybe instinctive level), he knew more about the sine wave than I did.>>> Ok, this one really kind of brought some things together for me (I think...LOL). That, and your comment about only doing the "tail end" of the Sine Wave. Reason being is that I was trying to equate the mechanics of the Sine Wave to the mechanics of western boxing (of which I am much more familiar). For example, I may shuffle step in and left jab at my opponents head in a fairly upright stance. From there, I may bring the right cross into bear as a straight body blow by changing levels (flexing the knees, dropping the hips, dipping the shoulders) in addition to the basic mechanics of the right cross delivery (pivot on the ball of the rear foot, bring the rear knee forward and inward, twist the rear hip forward, rotate the rear shoulder into and behind the punch). On an intuitive level (there's that term again), I'm seeing this level change as a "mass multiplier". In other words, the controlled drop of the body weight increases the amount of my mass that will be transferred through the strike assuming the movement is sharp and the strike hits in coordination with the mass. Again, tweaking the M portion of the F=MA equation. Is that kinda it, or am I all wet? CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest