Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 09:47:02 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #219 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. San Francisco Open (Ray Terry) 2. ATA (Woodard Brian (ChW/TEF8)) 3. running from the knife attack (Chris Hamilton) 4. Selling Addresses (Bert Edens) 5. CONGRADULATIONS RUDY!!! (Richard Tomlinson) 6. Choi Hong Hi and sine wave (Robert Martin) 7. RE: ITA opinions (Jason Thomas (Y!)) 8. Re: Selling Addresses (Ray Terry) 9. RE: RE: Opinion on ATA (Thomas Gordon) 10. RE: Opinion on ATA (Thomas Gordon) 11. Ocoee wannabes (Ray Terry) 12. From another Group...aches and pain (Jye nigma) 13. Re: From another Group...aches and pain (jeffrey kiral) 14. Re: ATA (Richard Zaruba) 15. Sine wave, ad nauseum... (Dave Steffen) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 12:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] San Francisco Open Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net San Francisco Open 2004 National Tae Kwon Do Chip Saturday, September 25 St. Mary's College 1928 St. Mary's Road Moraga, CA 94575 Hosted by Yu's Martial Arts Directed by Byong Hong Yu For info... 925.YMA.1000 FAX = 925.962.1001 http://www.yusmartialarts.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 15:48:12 -0400 From: "Woodard Brian (ChW/TEF8)" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] ATA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Eric; We had a ATA black belt join our school and start over in our org. and went all the way to Cho Dan. He was very talented, and one of my favorite classmates in which to spar. He was fast and had great control. Unfortunately he has not been to classes in over a year. Mr. Weller said it best. "I think the bottom line, which many on this list have said before, is that it is not so much the art you study, but the person who teaches you. A good teacher could make flower arranging into a formidable Martial style, a rotten teacher can turn the greatest system on earth into a bad joke." Remember, even if you have the best instructor in the world, you will still only get out of it what you put in. During breaks in class, be the first one over to the heavy bag or work on combinations. That's what I do. I am always moving during our whole 2 hour class. At the end, I am whooped, but feeling good and I know I'll sleep like a baby!! :o) Enjoy the journey!! Brian Woodard --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Chris Hamilton" To: Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 15:03:17 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] running from the knife attack Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Thank God I have never been attacked by a knife wielding assailant (been threatened by a few however), but I have heard from several sources (that I cannot readily recall) that running is one of the worst things you could do. I guess that would depend on the situation. Chris HMD in BR --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 13:02:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Bert Edens To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Selling Addresses Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > hi nathan, > i know this has nothing to do with the point of your > post. just need to state > that not all suppliers do this. some, like us, > actually have a very strict > privacy policy to protect our customers and dont > give out your personal > information. > take care, > melinda Greetings, all... I have done business with Chajonshim several times, and I can speak to the validity of this statement, and their professionalism... In fact, I know it's true, because I have to keep reminding her where we are located... <> :-) Seriously, I have always found Chajonshim to be very professional and good to work with... <> - Bert Edens Springdale, Arkansas __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Richard Tomlinson" To: Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 17:07:21 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] CONGRADULATIONS RUDY!!! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I've been reading the DD for about 6 months now and have always appreciated your inputs. Thanks and 8th dan as I read in the digest? WOW! CONGRADULATIONS SIR!!!!!! Bows...... sandy --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 14:01:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Martin To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Choi Hong Hi and sine wave Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net For the record: Gen. Choi belived in sine wave to the end. He taught it, pushed it, and demonstrated it at seminar after seminar all during the 90's. He talked it about it at the last seminar in Denver just before he passed away. Robert Martin --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Jason Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] ITA opinions Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 17:01:58 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My experience is that they have a sound business process and a great reproducible method of training for consistency. Instruction is one school is consistent with instruction in another. They have a strong instructor program, and many enthusiastic students. They really push organizational seminars, tournaments and belt tests. As to curriculum they use the Chang-Hon forms as a base. They have modified Chon-Ji or rather the form they call Chon-Ji does not look like the original. Several of the forms on the way to Black Belt (Chon-Ji thru Choong Moo) have been made optional. Thus the number of forms they need to memorize is some what less. This trend is carried on in the black belt ranks with forms such as Po-Eun being optional. There are two tracks for black belts, instructor and student. The instructors go through and intensive training programs of a couple hundred teaching hours. Students simply train and help out. There are several layers of stripe/uniform designations for different ranks/instructors etc... The have the Probationary, Decided, and Senior black belt system in the junior to mid black belt ranks. In my limited experience student black belts and under belts are not required to retain previous forms but only know the current material for belt level and may or may not be able to display or teach older stuff from a memory stand point (depends on the individual). The instructors are requirement to retain it all as part of certification. (this may vary from school to school). I hope this helps. Jason -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Baeder [mailto:baederp@bellsouth.net] Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 11:22 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] ITA opinions I run a small school in Auburn, Alabama. My only professional/commercial competitor is an ITA/TaeKwonDo Plus school. What are the general opinions of this school/system? I am not looking for a "bash fest" or bad mouthing of the ITA, I just am curious what are their strenghts and weaknesses. Thanks for help and insite, Patrick Baeder _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Selling Addresses To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 15:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I have done business with Chajonshim several times, > and I can speak to the validity of this statement, and > their professionalism... In fact, I know it's true, > because I have to keep reminding her where we are > located... <> :-) > Seriously, I have always found Chajonshim to be > very professional and good to work with... Agreed. Just yesterday got some school shirts via Ms. Mel. Another happy customer. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Opinion on ATA Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 17:44:37 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Stovall always does such a great job explaining things. The only additional input to his post is on his comment, "Some people hate the ATA just because they're the biggest and the most successful martial arts org in the world." ATA is far from the largest organization in the world. They have roughly 1100-1200 schools/clubs worldwide and probably about 150,000 members. Nothing to turn your nose up, but a far cry from the ITF(s) and WTF/KKW. Can't argue the success part if were talking monetary success. ATA appears to be a rich organization. And another thought, one poster mentioned about organizational rivalry. And yes, that happens a lot. In my case (and Mr. Dante James), I'm a previous ATA school/club owner and completed their certification camp. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Opinion on ATA Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 17:44:37 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Eric, I've been told that some ATA schools stop allowing a student to pay by the month once they reach green belt. At that point, they give you three options. Black Belt Club (BBC) with XXX benefits/training, Master's Club (MC) with all of BBC benefits plus XXXX, or Master's Program that gives you BBC, MC benefits plus XXXXX. From what I'm told, BBC ranges from $1800 - $3000, MC ranges from $3000 - $5000, and Leadership Program typically runs from $5000 - $10000. Typically, none of the "programs" include testing fees, sparring gear, tournaments, etc. To me, that's dirty. We get you hooked and then drop the bomb on you. In fairness, I have read some contracts from ATA schools that were very professionally done and protected both the student and the school owner. There is absolutely nothing wrong with contracts so long as they don't lock someone into an absorbent amount of money. With the way many of that ATA contracts are done, they school owner basically "sells the paper" meaning they cash out the contract. The student signs up for a $7000 program at $193 a month for 5 years. The finance company pays out the $7000 to the school owner and then makes their $4500 off of interest (based on 21.9% interest). Now I don't know this for a fact and I haven't seen the interest rates but I do know what I was told. Best regards, Thomas Gordon Florida -----Original Message----- From: Eric VanSickle [mailto:vansckl@mchsi.com] Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 12:12 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Opinion on ATA Mr. Gordon: So far, I haven't been faced with a contract. That might be true when I get into the black belts, but as I said, I'm only a yellow decided. What kind of contract are you referring? Eric ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 9:06 PM Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Opinion on ATA > Eric, > > What matters is that you are happy. I left ATA for my own reasons. > Some stayed for the same reasons I left over. To each their own. > > Just read what you are getting into when presented with contracts and > such. That's true with any contract. > > Best regards, > > Thomas Gordon > Florida > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard > disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 17:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Ocoee wannabes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Ran across an interesting article in a "martial arts > professional's" magazine - one of those things that > gets sent to you because suppliers sell your > addresses. Anyway, there's a small article with a > location line of Ocoee, FL, announcing that a local > martial arts grandmaster has signed on for a role on a > TV show, BANG TV or something like that. I kept the > magazine specifically so that I could tell you the > name of it... but now I can't find it... bah. If you locate it, please give us the reference. Would be good to get ahead of the curve on this one... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 19:06:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] From another Group...aches and pain Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello, I have been a novice fencer now for about six years. In the last yeear or soI have been having problems qwith my knees and my lef thip. when Ever I beiung fenicng, my knees realy start to hurt. My left hip allso feels very weak and after fencing it hurts for days. Has anyone expereinced thesew symptoms in their fencing or does nay one know anything about them? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "jeffrey kiral" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] From another Group...aches and pain Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 22:53:56 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net this website may have some answers for you...i learned alot about a rotator cuff tear i got last year... http://fit4martialarts.com/ you can also find stuff here... http://www.bragmanhealth.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jye nigma" To: Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 7:06 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] From another Group...aches and pain > Hello, I have been a novice fencer now for about six years. In the > last yeear or soI have been having problems qwith my knees and my > lef thip. when Ever I beiung fenicng, my knees realy start to hurt. > My left hip allso feels very weak and after fencing it hurts for > days. Has anyone expereinced thesew symptoms in their fencing or > does nay one know anything about them? > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 09:36:23 -0500 From: Richard Zaruba To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ATA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello, People need to keep one thing in mind when making broad sweeping statements about organizations and styles. The statements may not represent every school in the organization. This is true of every organization including the ATA. I myself am not a member of the ATA, but I have several friends that are school owners in the ATA, their skills and that of their students is comparable and in some cases above that of any other school I've seen. And I actually met two of them at an open tournament so I guess that some of them do venture outside. Every organization has good points and bad points as well as good instructors and schools and bad instructors and schools. The main point being as a student are you learning and enjoying your training and as a school owner and instructor can you live with the guidelines and politics of your organization. Respectfully, Richard Zaruba ____________________________________________________________________________ Richard Zaruba, PSBN Chief Instructor/ Owner Kuk Sool Won Family Martial Arts Center 2500-D South Columbia Road Grand Forks, ND 58201 Http://www.ksw-nd.com/ richard@ksw-nd.com Sch: (701) 775-7088 > Eternal Grand Master of business. No offense to any ATA people on the list, > but the facts are the facts. Ask the people in your school if you can attend > ANY other TKD tournament and see what they say....One reason they promote only > ATA tournaments is so the student can't see or compare themselves to others in > the TKD world. > If there are no other schools/styles near you, then continue to enjoy > yourself. Master Eddie Urbistondo --__--__-- Message: 15 From: Dave Steffen Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 10:31:45 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Sine wave, ad nauseum... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The sun is out here in Colorado, the mud in my back yard is drying up, and that means that I need to spend more time today working on my back patio than typing in my ramblings about the sine wave. That having been said... > From: "Burdick, Dakin R" > > Cool! A good argument with Dave Steffen! :) When you can snatch the physics from my head, Grasshopper... > Dave wrote: > > I'm a little confused here: you mean, I presume, that the General > didn't like the Karate straight line, yes? > > I wrote; > > Nope -- sorry about the confusion. I'm saying Gen. Choi didn't > like the sine curve, based on the post to that effect (author > unknown - sorry!). OK, I don't know where this came from, and am confused; this must be the result of some misunderstanding. Gen. Choi _invented_ the sine wave, and was still teaching it at his last seminar, which was only several days before his death. I can vouch for this, as I was there. > Dave wrote: > > I have the opposite idea; big dudes don't need the sine wave so much, > little guys need it more. > > I wrote: > > Gotta disagree. That seems too simplistic of an argument. Let's > prioritize needs first. The little guys need more power, BUT they > need speed even more, which will not only allow them to get in and > out without losing a vital portion of their anatomy, but also > because f=ma. Right? The big guy really needs more speed too, but > when he needs a sine wave sort of wind up is in close. He closes, > grabs the poor little sucker, yields to give himself some slack and > then plasters the guy. Does he need to do it? No, probably not. > Will he do it? Sure. Because he trains to fight in close (unless > he's worried about Ray coming around with a knife!) and therefore > needs to practice creating space for himself and taking it away > from his opponent. OK, here we need to be careful. When you say the little guy needs more speed than the big guy to get in and out, etc, you're making that argument based on _tactical_ needs, not _power_ needs; these are very different. The sine-wave says absolutely nothing about tactical issues, and is only dealing with _power_ generation. The small guy needs to use _more_ power-generating movements (and/or more powerful techniques) because he doesn't have the mass, or the muscle-mass (i.e. engines) to do it with just straight muscle power. And BTW, yes, f=ma, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. _Which_ force, _which_ mass, _what_ is accelerating, and - the key point - _what_ are you trying to do. A physics analysis of any particular martial art technique, say a punch, turns out to be extremely complicated, and quickly goes beyond freshman-level physics. Believe me, I've been wrestling with this for years. :-) The point is, if we consider the sine-wave to be a super-duper windup (which it kinda is), with the intent of sacrificing speed to gain power (which is only half right, but onward), then it's the little guy who needs it more than the big guy - or, more accurately, the less muscular guy needs it more than the more muscular one. BTW, this seems to be empirically true. Looking at experienced ITF'ers, the bigger people tend to do smaller sine-wave motions (when they're not teaching!). Smaller people like bigger sine-waves; I'm thinking of GM Hwang in particular here. [...] > Dave wrote: > > All the over-exaggeration that Mr. Martin referred to recently is > just to get the student to feel the body producing power. Once > you've got that, you don't really _need_ the whole sine wave thing. > It's a scaffolding to build the structure - once the structure's > built, you don't really need the scaffolding. > > My reply: > > Yep. A couple people have mentioned this already. The movement > becomes smaller when you are not demonstrating it and you know what > you are doing. Here we agree. And in sparring, when tactical considerations become important, people who know what they're doing only use the tail-end of the sine-wave. More on that later. > Dave wrote: > > My Okinawan weapons instructor used to get very frustrated with my > bouncing up and down. "Steffen-san, stop rocking the boat!" > > My reply: > > You've gotta learn to separate those arts! :) Very hard to do - once you get the hang of the sine-wave it's very hard to stop. I also found that Goju Ryu tends to bleed over into other things; I stopped my Goju dabbling when I found myself doing a little bit of sanchin-dachi in all my TKD forms. > One interesting note here (ears up Bruce!) would be: "is the head > kept level because the technique derives from Southern Chinese > gongfu?" Remember that a lot of those Chinese opera groups trained > on the river while going to their next gig? How's that for a > half-baked idea? :) Ha! > Dave also wrote: > > In fact, I don't think that the sine-wave is any slower in the "get > there" sense. Vertical motion is independent of horizontal motion, > plus or minus issues with the human gait (which is phenomenally > complicated). The sine wave _might_ actually generate more forward > velocity (probably not much). > > My reply: > > But Dave! You just wrote: "The sine-wave _is_ unquestionably a > sort of extended wind-up, and is "slower" in some sense. In the > speed-vs-power engineering trade-off that all martial arts make, > the sine-wave is way over on the power side of things, which is > insane from the Karate viewpoint (Karate being, generally, way over > on the speed end)." Also, I think gait comes into any > consideration of walking! :) So, since my opinion is as good as > yours (barring any research), I'll take the opposing side. Losers > pays for a drink when we finally meet up! The sine-wave is slow for a lot of reasons, particularly as shown to students (and IMHO it really exists for their benefit anyway). The sine-wave features big preparatory arm movements, a body drop into the final part of the strike, a lifting of the body right before that (so you've got somewhere to drop from), and an initial downward movement before that. That's a heck of a lot of "wasted motion" from the Karate point of view. My point about not taking that much longer to step forward is something I probably should have kept quiet about, since it distracts from the other points. My point was just that the argument "straight line = shortest distance = fastest motion", when applied _to the stepping motion_, doesn't necessarily hold water. But, when applied to the technique as a whole, they're right - the Karate technique goes more-or-less straight to where it needs to be, whereas the sine-wave technique does all kinds of other things first. > Dave then wrote: > > What _is_ slow about the sine-wave is the _telegraphing_. Compared > to the usual Karate-ish movement, you can see a sine-wave technique > coming miles off. Which is why I'm convinced it's just a teaching > tool. > > My reply: > > But if you are in a grappling situation, you won't see that wind > up. But you sure will feel it. Again, grappling situation or non-grappling situation is a tactical issue; the sine-wave doesn't address that. And really, the sine-wave is only used for blocking, striking, and kicking - wouldn't apply much in a grappling situation anyway, unless you find you've got the room for an elbow strike or something. Interestingly enough, Aikido explicily uses a very sine-wave-ish motion in their throws, although of course they don't call it that - they just call it good Aikido. :-) So maybe the sine-wave applies to grappling, but - as with tactical issues - we don't really talk to that. > PS: I empty my cup by having my students beat me up. Your mileage > may vary! Well yes, getting beat up by anyone - students or instructors - always improves my outlook on life, if for no other reason than that I'm too badly hurt to worry about anything! > From: "Stovall, Craig" > > Ok, I think I'm getting the gist of this. However, I wanted to > tease out a few points from Dr. Steffen's excellent post. Thanks! > << and is "slower" in some sense. In the speed-vs-power engineering > trade-off that all martial arts make, the sine-wave is way over on > the power side of things, which is insane from the Karate viewpoint > (Karate being, generally, way over on the speed end).>>> > > Ok, first of all...I don't know JACK about physics, except what I > remember from a few sober moments in college and what little I've > gleaned from watching 'Star Trek' (does that even count). Star Trek physics... deep breath... groan... > Now, when you boil it down to the absolute essentials here, aren't > we really talking about the generation of "Force" (I know we > martial artists always like to talk about "power")? If 'Force' > equals 'Mass' times 'Acceleration' (help me out here Doc), then I'm > guessing that the Sine Wave motion is intended to manipulate the > 'Mass' component of the equation? Is that right, or am I missing > it altogether? Well, you're not missing it altogether, but you're not right either. As I mentioned above, really understanding what's going on takes more than "F=MA". Which isn't to say that F=MA isn't important, but there's more to it. Example: compare mass * acceleration for your body - that is, mass of your body * acceleration of your body - if I hit you with a middle section punch, to the mass*acceleration of your body when you do a good breakfall. The force you experience doing a good breakfall is vastly bigger than the force you experience from my knuckles; but my knuckles are much less pleasant. Why? Because the forces in a breakfall are A) spread out over your whole body, instead of being concentrated on a specific place; and B) your breakfall specifically directs forces to stronger body structures (large muscle groups, palm of hand, etc) while my punch (hopefully) hits something delicate. More to the point, my punch delivers energy to a small part of your body mass, and tries to move it while keeping everything else stationary. If I move your rib back a foot, but the rest of you stays motionless, you're gonna need an EMT and fast! Compare that to a breakfall, which (de-)accelerates your whole body at (more-or-less) the same time, reducing the amount that any one part of the body is displaced compared to everything else. We're now into issues like A) what exactly causes injury to the human body, B) what exactly causes pain (not necessarily the same thing), C) how fast is energy transferred (as compared to some sort of 'relaxation time' of the target), D) deformation of solids (extremely difficult math), and so on. > In other words, by putting my body in a "controlled free fall" on > the tail end of the Sine Wave, more of my mass is brought into the > strike as I let gravity do at least a part of its dirty work. At > least, that's how I'm conceiving it on an intuitive level. Please > help me out here. Yes, I do think the body drop increases the effective mass of the attack to a degree. However, I think the bigger contribution has to do with the chambering / wind-up, relaxation, and a host of timing issues. > << sometimes, although they don't call it that. [...] > Ok, this one really kind of brought some things together for me (I > think...LOL). That, and your comment about only doing the "tail > end" of the Sine Wave. Reason being is that I was trying to equate > the mechanics of the Sine Wave to the mechanics of western boxing > (of which I am much more familiar). For example, I may shuffle > step in and left jab at my opponents head in a fairly upright > stance. From there, I may bring the right cross into bear as a > straight body blow by changing levels (flexing the knees, dropping > the hips, dipping the shoulders) in addition to the basic mechanics > of the right cross delivery (pivot on the ball of the rear foot, > bring the rear knee forward and inward, twist the rear hip forward, > rotate the rear shoulder into and behind the punch). Yes, the "flexing the knees, dropping the hips" stuff sounds very familiar. In fact, a lot of martial arts have this sort of thing; we just gave it a name and made a big deal out of it. [...] > Is that kinda it, or am I all wet? Sort of. The "adding mass" argument is a good way to convince people that the sine wave works and that they should do it, but I think it's a secondary effect if it happens at all. You're really adding _momentum_ by dropping your body (momentum = mass * velocity); if you know what you're about, that additional momentum gets transferred to the striking or blocking tool. This transfer requires a lot of coordination and timing, which are the other things that the sine-wave teaches. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Dave Steffen, Ph.D. Wave after wave will flow with the tide Raytheon IIS And bury the world as it does tkd-physics@comcast.net Tide after tide will flow and recede Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest