Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 03:01:51 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #221 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Running from a knife? (michael tomlinson) 2. RE: General Choi "hating" Sine Wave (Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy) 3. Fencing knees & TKD physics (Burdick, Dakin R) 4. pictures posted from the North Austin Tae Kwon Do Kong Shin Bup Seminar in March. (Jason Thomas (Y!)) 5. Mr. Pellegrini (C. Bonner) 6. Running from a knife ({USER_FIRSTNAME} {USER_LASTNAME}) 7. RE: Running from a knife (Bernard Maginnity) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 11:45:44 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Running from a knife? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I kind of don't get this thread,, someone told someone that running from a knife is NOT the thing to do... with all due respect it sounds like this person has never faced someone WITH a knife.. I unfortunately have been attacked a few times with a knife and once with some guys with baseball bats and your first and primary feeling... regardless of what you know or train in... IS TO RUN!!! You would actually have to fight the feeling of running to even stay still and use your techniques... your mind and body are very powerful things and they WILL protect themselves the best and most expediant way possible... philosophizing about knife attacks is one thing... being attacked by someone with a knife is something else... the times that I didn't run, I got cut.. the times I didn't run ONLY happened because the knife was in my face BEFORE my body could react and run... YOU WILL RUN IF YOU CAN... point blank.. so no offense but until you see that person with bad intent coming at you with a knife don't listen to someone's "theory" because I had theorized and practiced many many times against a knife but when you see the thing coming at you then the dissertation goes out the window,, really quick... Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 10:02:27 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: General Choi "hating" Sine Wave Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Chris: Thank you for your thoughts/comments on the Sine Wave subject. I have read many of your posts and enjoy them alot. BUT.....I don't recall ANYONE, especially myself, stating that General Choi "hated" the Sine Wave. All I know is what I was taught. And how my instructor was taught by HIS instructor in the 1960's and 70's in the Dallas/Ft. Worth, TX area. The Sine Wave was never once introduced. I saw it for the first time briefly in the beginning of 1989 and then saw it LIVE for the first time during that tournament in April 1989 in PA. Tom Metzner wrote: "A quick word on sine wave. General Choi started teaching it in 1989 ...." So, is it maybe, just maybe, possible that Gen Choi was going through that transition of deciding to Sine or Not to Sine in April 1989 when I saw him do what he did? And then later in that same year, as Mr. Metzner says, Gen Choi finally decides that Sine Wave is the way to go? I believe that Sine Wave "can" generate this power you and others speak of. I just don't know from actual application since this was not the way I was taught nor do I teach it today to my students. I've had my fair share of instructors over the years, some longer than others, but not one of them taught Sine Wave. I also know that without Sine Wave there is a great deal of power. I'm not saying one way is better than the other. I know better than to make such a bold statement and stir up a fire here. You say: "In all honesty I find this incredible (if not incredulous)" about the videotape I have. Well, that's fine. I know what I have. If you have ever videotaped someone speaking into a microphone in a gym, then you know the audio is not the very best quality. More than 1/2 of the things he said into the microphone is distorted due to echoing inside the gym. I do not recall and Gen Choi does not specifically say anything about a saw-toothed wave. Maybe he did. But to my recollection, he did not. You say: " Well, Grand Master's Rhee, Ki Ha; Hwang, Kwang Sung and Charles Sereff are pretty "old" and they all do it. Not to mention Master Choi, Jung Hwa and the late Park, Jung Tae." I'm sure they did/do. But did they do it prior to 1989? In 1985? In 1980? How about in the 1960s or 1970's? If Gen. Choi didn't start teaching it till 1989, then where did the Masters menitoned above learn it? My bottom line in all this is this: If you Sine, fine. If you don't Sine, fine. Do what works for you. Better yet, do what your Instructor taught you to do. There is no right or wrong. Always seek ways to make your techniques better for YOU. Guess I should have said "bottom line(s).." :) James Morgan GTKDA --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 09:45:32 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Fencing knees & TKD physics Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye wrote: Hello, I have been a novice fencer now for about six years. In the last yeear or soI have been having problems qwith my knees and my lef thip. My reply: Sorry to hear that Jye. I'm assuming the knee problems come from the lunge and maybe that left hip comes from the recovery? For the hip I would look at your rear foot placement try to reduce the strain on the hip in that recovery position, even if you can't lunge as deep. Can't give you much advice on the knee. I'm assuming you are already making sure you don't hyperflex it, but since you are also doing other martial arts, it may just be overuse. I trashed my knees long ago doing tkd, fencing, and a penchant for jumping off buildings. Overuse = not good. My idiocy led to chondromalacia (sp?), meaning I turned the cartilage in my knees into jelly (not good!). To correct this, I strengthened the muscles around the knees so they help support the problem area. Haven't had problems with it for years as a result. Your mileage may vary! Dave wrote: OK, I don't know where this came from, and am confused; this must be the result of some misunderstanding. Gen. Choi _invented_ the sine wave, and was still teaching it at his last seminar, which was only several days before his death. I can vouch for this, as I was there. My reply: Ok -- I leave it to you ITF guys to fight this one out! Dave wrote: OK, here we need to be careful. When you say the little guy needs more speed than the big guy to get in and out, etc, you're making that argument based on _tactical_ needs, not _power_ needs; these are very different. My reply: Yep, I think it is more important to keep tactics in mind. There are LOTS of ways to do the martial arts, but only a few work really well. We should think about probabilities, no possibilities, IMHO. Dave wrote: And BTW, yes, f=ma, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. ..... Believe me, I've been wrestling with this for years. :-) My reply: Yep, and I've been reading your stuff on it for about 13 years now I believe. :) Thanks for not going into excruciating detail on this one -- I'm almost afraid to write that formula these days! Dave also wrote: Looking at experienced ITF'ers, the bigger people tend to do smaller sine-wave motions (when they're not teaching!). Smaller people like bigger sine-waves; I'm thinking of GM Hwang in particular here. My reply: Yep, probably true. But those big sine-waves are less useful too, right? In a tactical sense I mean. :) In order to use a sine wave against a thinking opponent, you'll want to keep the visual cues small. Dave wrote: I also found that Goju Ryu tends to bleed over into other things; I stopped my Goju dabbling when I found myself doing a little bit of sanchin-dachi in all my TKD forms. My reply: I think the key to this sort of stuff is that if your instructor doesn't catch you doing it, it is a useful addition to the art. If he tells you to cut it out, then it has to go. Or you do! Dave wrote: We're now into issues like A) what exactly causes injury to the human body, B) what exactly causes pain (not necessarily the same thing), C) how fast is energy transferred (as compared to some sort of 'relaxation time' of the target), D) deformation of solids (extremely difficult math), and so on. My reply: Cool! Now THIS is an interesting topic. A) You need to decide if you are going to use a European or Asian model of medicine to judge injury, or a combination of the two. What you believe regarding the human body determines what you will do to it. Other elements that play into this are: gender differences, size differences, age differences, and the probability of genetic defects in your target (ie. does he have a weak heart? Are you going to potentially kill him if you punch him in the chest? How long will you be going to jail for that one?). B) Is pain actually going to work on your opponent? C) This one I'd love to see more explanation of! Dave? D) Always fun! I still remember that Scientific American article on deformation of the fist. Do you have any other articles like that to recommend? And beyond that of course: E) Tactically speaking, what is your aim? Do you want to incapacitate (vital points) or subdue (small amount of permanent injury). F) How will the courts view what you do to the target (hopefully an attacker!)? How can you modify the technique to reduce chance of civil or criminal charges? This stuff is fun! Thanks, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Jason Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 12:16:05 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] pictures posted from the North Austin Tae Kwon Do Kong Shin Bup Seminar in March. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The pictures are finally up from the Kong Shin Bup Seminar held in Austin in March. You can find the pictures at www.natkd.com/events. There are 4 sets of pictures, be sure to click the links on the left to see the other galleries. There are 424 pictures in total. I will leave the pictures up for a week or two so that everyone can download the ones they like. I hope to see you all at Master West's seminar in Houston next month. Jason --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "C. Bonner" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 14:35:40 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Mr. Pellegrini Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net               I just heard from a friend of mine in the I.C.H.F. That Mr. Pellegrini, recieved his 9th dan on April 18, while in korea. From, In Sun Seo. Interesting!!         Clint ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "{USER_FIRSTNAME} {USER_LASTNAME}" To: Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 17:09:11 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Running from a knife Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Try turning your back on a bull while wearing red? Turn your back on a guy with a iron pipe? Turn your back on an angry mob? Turn your back on a group of preschoolers while holding a bag of candy in each hand. Seriously though. I have been in only one knife fight where I chased a guy into an ally after he assaulted a man and woman on the street. He ran into the alley......found out it was a dead end......turned around and pulled a 6" blade. I was already 30' into a 60' area with one way out and 5' on either side. some threatening challenges were made by him and I kept quiet sizing him up. I couldn't turn around and run because his state of mind was unclear other than the fact that he was cornered and drew a weapon. Might have thrown it at me. Might have put it away as the threat level dissolved. If I had backed out the same applies. Who knows. I do know that I thought about running for only a second probably. I took my leather jacket off my right arm and wrapped it around the left and waited for him. HE took a step and lunged forward with ice pick grip over the head, I stepped to my right and he slashed sideways and then angled back up towards my head area. After his attempt at my head, I punched him square in the forehead (ouch) followed him forward and then punched him again in the mouth. He just fell backwards out cold. No hapkido...No Taekwondo...no NinJitsu...Just bread and butter straight punch. I've thought about it many times over the last 20 years and think I would slow down at the corner to take a look next time. It depends on the situation and you have to developed a way to prepare yourself for these things even if they never happen. Scenarios are the best. Think about them all the time. Just my 2 cents. Greg << but I have heard from several sources (that I cannot readily recall) that running is one of the worst things you could do. I guess that would depend on the situation.>> --__--__-- Message: 7 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Running from a knife Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 09:58:27 +1000 From: "Bernard Maginnity" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greg Bulls are colour blind. The red is for the spectators, same reasoning that army cams exist. Blood is very off putting especially in the heat of the moment (like running from a bull). Red on red, you can't tell the difference between sweat and blood. I liked your description of your knife altercation and this raises a question for me. For someone who has had very little experience with knives, the guys on this list with knife experience (read escrima etc) advocate running, some of the other list members from a different viewpoint advocate not turning your back. Can someone please clarify both viewpoints for me? I am assuming that the knife guys are suggesting changing the attackers mind about running after you by, as Rudy suggests, break dancing on their leg or something and then running. Is this correct? How else would you go about it? Kind regards Bernie Maginnity -----Original Message----- Try turning your back on a bull while wearing red? Turn your back on a guy with a iron pipe? Turn your back on an angry mob? Turn your back on a group of preschoolers while holding a bag of candy in each hand. Seriously though. I have been in only one knife fight where I chased a guy into an ally after he assaulted a man and woman on the street. He ran into the alley......found out it was a dead end......turned around and pulled a 6" blade. I was already 30' into a 60' area with one way out and 5' on either side. Greg NOTICE The information contained in this electronic mail message is privileged and confidential, and is intended only for use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. Mission Australia has implemented anti-virus software, and whilst all care is taken, it is the recipient's responsibility to ensure that any attachments are scanned for viruses prior to use. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest