Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 18:39:04 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #223 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: General Choi "hating" sine wave - my bad (Christopher Spiller) 2. RE: Running from a knife? (Stovall, Craig) 3. what type of students (henry henderson) 4. 9 th dan (Eric) 5. Re: Hackworth (chuck@rimshapkido.org) 6. Re: Hackworth (Ray Terry) 7. RE: RE: Running from a knife? (Bernard Maginnity) 8. Re: Re: General Choi "hating" sine wave - my bad (Jason E. Thomas) 9. RE: General Choi "hating" Sine Wave (Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy) 10. Re: Re: General Choi "hating" sine wave - my bad (Ray Terry) 11. Re: RE: Running from a knife? (Ray Terry) 12. kids fighting (freddie bishop) 13. Re: Re: General Choi "hating" sine wave - my bad (Jason E. Thomas) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 12:51:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: General Choi "hating" sine wave - my bad Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net James Morgan wrote: > Chris: > Thank you for your thoughts/comments on the Sine > Wave subject. I have read > many of your posts and enjoy them alot. > BUT.....I don't recall ANYONE, especially myself, > stating that General Choi > "hated" the Sine Wave. Ah, I need to learn to phrase things more carefully. The subject heading in my last posting wasn't intended to indicate that that's what you had said. That was the reason I used quotation marks in the first place. Sorry if you got the wrong impression. All I know is what I was > taught. And how my > instructor was taught by HIS instructor in the > 1960's and 70's in the > Dallas/Ft. Worth, TX area. The Sine Wave was never > once introduced. I saw it > for the first time briefly in the beginning of 1989 > and then saw it LIVE for > the first time during that tournament in April 1989 > in PA. > Tom Metzner wrote: > "A quick word on sine wave. General Choi started > teaching it in 1989 ...." > So, is it maybe, just maybe, possible that Gen Choi > was going through that > transition of deciding to Sine or Not to Sine in > April 1989 when I saw him do > what he did? And then later in that same year, as > Mr. Metzner says, Gen Choi > finally decides that Sine Wave is the way to go? This is possible. The only thing I would add is that the first edition of Gen. Choi's encyclopedia has a publication date of 1983 on it. Additionally, there is a section on generating sine wave in this edition, which puts the introduction of said technique about 6 years before what we're discussing. My old instructor told me about a seminar in Canada he went to with Gen. Choi and then-Master Park Jung Tae in, I believe, 1986. They were working on sine wave then, at least to some extent. > I believe that Sine Wave "can" generate this power > you and others speak of. I > just don't know from actual application since this > was not the way I was > taught nor do I teach it today to my students. I've > had my fair share of > instructors over the years, some longer than others, > but not one of them > taught Sine Wave. I also know that without Sine > Wave there is a great deal of > power. I'm not saying one way is better than the > other. I know better than > to make such a bold statement and stir up a fire > here. Heh, heh. Diplomacy certainly can be a strength :) Frankly, I have seen people generate enormous power WITHOUT sine wave and some people use sine wave quite ineffectively. That being said, I think Dave Steffan's analogy to a wind up in baseball is extremely helpful. Can you throw a ball without a wind up? Of course. You can even learn to throw it long/fast/hard/whatever without a wind up. But if you take what you already have and add a good wind up to the pitch - watch out! > You say: > "In all honesty I find this incredible (if not > incredulous)" about the > videotape I have. Well, that's fine. I know what I > have. If you have ever > videotaped someone speaking into a microphone in a > gym, then you know the > audio is not the very best quality. More than 1/2 > of the things he said into > the microphone is distorted due to echoing inside > the gym. I wasn't trying to call your integrity into question. In fact, what you say about sound quality kind of backs up my previous comment. Big echoing gym, one small man on a mic. Equals one big mess in the comprehension department. I do not recall > and Gen Choi does not specifically say anything > about a saw-toothed wave. > Maybe he did. But to my recollection, he did not. Fair enough. > You say: > " Well, Grand Master's Rhee, Ki Ha; Hwang, Kwang > Sung and Charles Sereff are > pretty "old" and they all do it. Not to mention > Master Choi, Jung Hwa and the > late Park, Jung Tae." I'm sure they did/do. But > did they do it prior to > 1989? In 1985? In 1980? I don't know. Probably not before 1980 as I have heard that what the ITF was doing then was referred to as "spring style." Perhaps Mr. Martin can speak to GM Sereff's practice in the early to mid 80's (?). > How about in the 1960s or > 1970's? No. As I stated above no sine wave before the early 80's. If Gen. Choi > didn't start teaching it till 1989, then where did > the Masters menitoned above > learn it? >From General Choi, I presume. > My bottom line in all this is this: If you Sine, > fine. If you don't Sine, > fine. Do what works for you. Better yet, do what > your Instructor taught you > to do. There is no right or wrong. Always seek > ways to make your techniques > better for YOU. Guess I should have said "bottom > line(s).." :) I agree that you should follow your instructor's directions. As for "no right and wrong", well, I'm not so sure about that... As you mentioned in your previous posting, Gen. Choi was quite adamant that people were doing something very WRONG ;-) Taekwon, Chris __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 15:03:49 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Running from a knife? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Once again, Michael Tomlinson confirms the fact that he and I live on the same planet. I pretty much agree with everything he just posted. Now, for some additional thoughts of my own. IMHO, the most successful strategy to surviving a knife attack from a statistical standpoint is to put as much space between you and the attacker as possible. By "statistical" I mean that I honestly believe that if you could somehow test two groups the "runner" group would have a higher survival rate than the "non-runner" group. Of course, I can't back this up with fact, but it does pass my "gut feel" test. Two caveats: Obviously, creating space is not always a possibility (I stress the term "creating space" for reasons that will hopefully become clear). For example, if I am trapped in a closed space, or if I'm escorting my elderly parent...the opportunity to just "create space" is not really there. In those instances, I had better know something about knives and improvised weapons, and I had better have the ability to "bring the hurt" on someone in a real, damned hurry. IMHO, the longer the struggle with a knife-wielding attacker, the odds of your buying the farm increases exponentially. Again, hard to back that up with hard facts, but it passes the smell test. Second caveat..."creating space" does not automatically mean turning one's back on someone...I'm not sure how the running issue got turned into "turning one's back". That will eventually happen if you choose to run, but you have to be a tad more sophisticated in the set-up. The FIRST thing I'm going to do is lower my center of gravity, and start backpeddling at a fairly slow pace (so as not to trip). This way I'm creating space (just a few feet could save my life...more on that later), and I'm able to monitor his movement and intentions. I have three jobs to do...create space, don't fall down, and recognize which hand he's holding the knife in. All the while, you could be delivering verbal de-escalation cues...tell him "you're the man", "I don't want any trouble", "this was a bad mistake on my part", etc. If they choose to stand there and do nothing then I can just keep backing up until he becomes a tiny little dot on the horizon, or until I make enough space to where my gut tells me it's OK to make a break for it (turn tail and sprint). This is common sense to the nth degree, but you'd be surprised how such a simple tactic never dawns upon the hoards of trained martial artists out there. If they decide to crash in and attack, knowing which hand they are holding the knife with is critical to what you would do next (assuming the run strategy is possible). For example, they are holding the knife in their right hand (most probable case), and they are rapidly advancing for the attack. I would want to drive off of my left foot and explode to my right (his left) in a dead sprint. This does two things...gets me as far away from the knife as I can be, and puts me on a sprint line that is perpendicular to his line of advance. This way, he has to change directions (to his left) in order to pursue, whereas I'm just exploding off the line and doing my Jesse Owens impersonation. The required directional change will most likely slow them down, and buy me precious time. I do NOT want to turn tail and run directly away from them if at all possible. I'm more likely to get run down, and all that bad stuff that people are talking about can happen. Once I'm running I have two jobs...run as fast as I can, and listen for footsteps. If I hear footsteps and feel that I'm being overtaken, then I want to explosively change directions again. This time, driving off of my right foot and heading to my left at a 90 degree angle to my prior line...if at all possible. Again, this puts me away from the knife hand (I doubt they switched hands), and causes them to have to change direction in REACTION to my new sprint line. Personally, I could keep repeating that for a hell of a lot longer than the average mugger, and probably keep myself out of the morgue. It's simple, anyone can learn it, and it's easy to drill. Think about it...wind sprints in the park have a lot more carryover for your general health and fitness than playing at knife disarms for 15 years. Get home safe AND look good in a thong. Whippeeeee!!! Finer points: This not a perfect solution, but I think it's the most common sense approach to running. Bottom line...don't just turn and run. Also, if you're not athletic enough to outrun a person that's trying to kill you, then I highly question your ability to overcome the physical disadvantages of fighting a person armed with a knife. What can I say...I'm sorry. Technique is critical, but physical/mental attributes win fights when the rubber hits the road. Personally, I spend a lot of my training time under conditions of aerobic/anaerobic distress, and I'd rather be forced to turn and face someone that I've taken around the track a few times as opposed to facing down a knife in the hands of a fresh person...but that's just me. In regards to Strength and Conditioning, I've preached on that enough and people know my viewpoints. I think it was Bernard who asked what the Escrima guys' take on things was. I've done Kali (Arnis, Escrima) since 1991, and when I was on my "A game" I could block/parry/trap/capture/hit/disarm with the best of them. I could make training blades go flying left and right, and have been very successful at defending against real time "attacks" in simulations. In addition, I think the FMA is WAY ahead of most stuff that you see being taught out there in the way of knife defense. Not to toot my own horn, but I'm way ahead of the curve in comparison to a lot of people out there who are under the impression that they can take a knife away from somebody as easy as blocking a punch. Having said all of that...I would RUN MY ASS OFF if at all possible, and that's the standard advice that I give to anyone else. If running is not an option, then you had better understand improvised weapons. Try to get your shoe off and slip it over your hand for blocking (remember: back up and make that space to give you time to do something like this). A belt makes a good lashing weapon. A jacket can be wrapped around a forearm for safer blocking. Ink pen, keys, rocks, dirt, spit...I don't care...get a weapon!!! Anything to help even the odds. Empty hand against the knife should be the LAST option. Not that it can't be done, it's just that the consequences of failure are a little higher than that of having a fistfight with some drunk behind Pizza Hut. Unfortunately, empty hand against the knife is a circumstance that can just be thrust upon us (pardon the pun). LEO's are given weapons for a reason, and I recommend people carry a personal protection device if their lifestyle takes them into high risk areas on a regular basis (consult your state and local law, please). Otherwise, most of us never have to worry about this stuff by just following the common sense lessons that you're Momma should have taught you. If Momma didn't teach you any sense...remind me to post about Mark Tripp's "4 Rules". Craig "The Blazin' Caucasian" Stovall CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "henry henderson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 16:34:15 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] what type of students Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well speaking as an instructor and a student, i will have to say a mix. But since you want more specifics i wont go that route. Even though i believe that even the nerd is quite capable of taking care of himself just as much as the army ranger. As an instructor i would like to say the nerdy type, because teaching them that they can fight back and dont have to be helpless is a good thing. Most of it has alot to do with self esteem and how they see theirself in the mirror. We have a program here where i teach, it takes juvenille offenders and teach the basics of martial arts(tkd) to help with their discipline. Now these few 12-16 yr olds that were mandated by the court to take this program have very low self esteem.Even speaking for myself i had very low self esteem before the Martial Arts. Anyway, these students in the YARD(Youth Anger Redirection and Development) program are the "toughest" and "roughest" bunch of kids you could imagine. But yet they cant do simple pushes and sit ups..Not because they phsyically cant, but their minds are so shut to achieving anything..they have the " i cant and I wont" attitude. This relates to a "nerd" once they know they can fight back, and can develop self esteem, to where they dont have to hide who they really are and know they have control over their lives its very rewarding. Now as a student, i would say the military guys. Why? because as a student i want to learn and know i will be challenged in everything i do. Because like mention before with some of the military personell its a matter of life or death when learning these techniques. Not saying that the average individual wont be as dilligent when it comes to learning Self Defense or just the Martial ARts in general but the fact that the military would probably have to use it before a normal person would...well in some cases. I would like to train with people who have the im going to get you before you get me attitude..which makes for good grapping, Self Defense , sparring sessions. Respectfully yours in tae kwon Henry Henderson,II Cisco Certified Network Associate CompTIA Network + Certified _________________________________________________________________ Watch LIVE baseball games on your computer with MLB.TV, included with MSN Premium! http://join.msn.com/?page=features/mlb&pgmarket=en-us/go/onm00200439ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Eric" To: Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 16:33:59 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] 9 th dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I just heard from a friend of mine in the I.C.H.F. That Mr. Pellegrini, recieved his 9th dan on April 18, while in korea. From, In Sun Seo. Interesting!! Clint Yes and right after he recieved his Mr. Baubil and Mr Timmerman recieved theirs Your point! Eric --__--__-- Message: 5 From: chuck@rimshapkido.org To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 17:46:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Hackworth Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Guys: I don't have a dog in this fight but thought that it was worth mentioning that in the June 2004 Issue of Black Belt magazine, on page 118: "Hapkido Federation names Directors Seoul, South Korea-- Park Kum-shill, President of the Korean hapkido Federation, recently announced his first International Appointments. Richard hackworth of Orlando Florida, was named International Director" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Im not sure where they got the info and how good it is but thought that it was worth passing on to y'all. Chuck Callahan www.RimsHapkido.org --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Hackworth To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 15:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > "Hapkido Federation names Directors > Seoul, South Korea-- > Park Kum-shill, President of the Korean hapkido Federation, > recently announced his first International Appointments. Richard > hackworth of Orlando Florida, was named International Director" That is what he has been claiming. But remember that this is not the well known KHF. He was kicked out of that organization. This is the new Corporation of KHF, a new little group in Korea. And we are still not sure if he even has a position in this new group. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Running from a knife? Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 09:09:48 +1000 From: "Bernard Maginnity" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks for those thoughts Craig " Think about it...wind sprints in the park have a lot more carryover for your general health and fitness than playing at knife disarms for 15 years. Get home safe AND look good in a thong. Whippeeeee!!!" Your ideas give me some things to think about and looking good has its own advantages. Kind regards Bernie Maginnity NOTICE The information contained in this electronic mail message is privileged and confidential, and is intended only for use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. Mission Australia has implemented anti-virus software, and whilst all care is taken, it is the recipient's responsibility to ensure that any attachments are scanned for viruses prior to use. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 17:13:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason E. Thomas" Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: General Choi "hating" sine wave - my bad To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Christopher Spiller wrote: >This is possible. The only thing I would add is that >the first edition of Gen. Choi's encyclopedia has a >publication date of 1983 on it. Additionally, there is >a section on generating sine wave in this edition, >which puts the introduction of said technique about 6 >years before what we're discussing. I beg to differ. There is are other versions such as: 1965, 1975, 1980, 1983, etc... Older versions no only DO NOT mention sinewave, but even have the Pyong-Ahn/Heian forms/hyungs/tuls in them. Jason Regards, Jason --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 20:42:28 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: General Choi "hating" Sine Wave Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jason wrote: "I don't begrudge others who enjoy it or use, it's just not for me." And neither do I. James Morgan GTKDA --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: General Choi "hating" sine wave - my bad To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 17:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >This is possible. The only thing I would add is that > >the first edition of Gen. Choi's encyclopedia has a > >publication date of 1983 on it. Additionally, there is > >a section on generating sine wave in this edition, > >which puts the introduction of said technique about 6 > >years before what we're discussing. > > I beg to differ. There is are other versions such as: 1965, 1975, 1980, 1983, etc... Older versions no only DO NOT mention sinewave, but even have the Pyong-Ahn/Heian forms/hyungs/tuls in them. > I think Chris is talking about the 15 volume encyclopedia, with editions dated 1983, 1987, 1993 (and later?). Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Running from a knife? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 18:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Think about it...wind sprints in the park have a lot more carryover for your > general health and fitness than playing at knife disarms for 15 years. > Get home safe AND look good in a thong. Whippeeeee!!! imho Running is generally a good idea. Knives are VERY dangerous, most people would rather face a gun than a knife (or so it was claimed by Mas Ayoob in LFI II). However as you run and do martial arts and sports daily thru the years there comes a time when running for more than a few yards becomes a real problem. Backs and knees and ankles wear out. The sight of a knife, assuming you actually do see it, may give you sufficient energy to run a bit further than normal... use that to your advantage. In general, if your attacker really wants to cut you, they will. Running helps if the attack is one of convenience, i.e. you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Use your Nike-Do to get out of that area, hopefully to a place not too far away that has more people present and/or better lighting and/or weapons that you can use like a 2x4 or trash can or, better yet a friendly person with a CCW and a handy Glock. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 18:15:42 -0700 (PDT) From: freddie bishop To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] kids fighting Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My six year old just kicked his three year old brother in the back of the head, bad news. My three year old has had two concussions during 3 short years of life. I have told my six year old time and again, "Don't practice on your brother, don't even act like your practicing on your brother" Man, this aggravates me! I'm keeping the victim up a little later for observation. The six year old is done with Tae Kwon Do. He is normally a timid boy, on sparring nights he is never the aggressor, instead he acts like he's there to play "patty cake" Is he a bully? thougts? Fred __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 19:12:50 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason E. Thomas" Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: General Choi "hating" sine wave - my bad To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ah... I don't beg to differ then? :) My apologies. Jason Ray Terry wrote: > >This is possible. The only thing I would add is that > >the first edition of Gen. Choi's encyclopedia has a > >publication date of 1983 on it. Additionally, there is > >a section on generating sine wave in this edition, > >which puts the introduction of said technique about 6 > >years before what we're discussing. > > I beg to differ. There is are other versions such as: 1965, 1975, 1980, 1983, etc... Older versions no only DO NOT mention sinewave, but even have the Pyong-Ahn/Heian forms/hyungs/tuls in them. > I think Chris is talking about the 15 volume encyclopedia, with editions dated 1983, 1987, 1993 (and later?). Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Regards, Jason --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest