Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 03:01:48 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #235 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: General Choi "hating" Sine Wave (Thomas Gordon) 2. KOMA (michael tomlinson) 3. Re: KOMA Clarification (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 4. Salute? (Wilson, Byron) 5. Re: KOMA - Frank (blueknightpi@att.net) 6. Hapkido Organizations (Chris and Cindy) 7. Martial Arts Business Support Organizations. (Jason Thomas (Y!)) 8. New Orgs (Brian Beach) 9. RE: KOMA - Vic (Stovall, Craig) 10. USKMAF Seminar (rich hodder) 11. Re: USKMAF Seminar (silentflute) 12. Iraq Police Mission (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] General Choi "hating" Sine Wave Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 23:23:10 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Robert Martin wrote: "Now for the part that will tick some people off -- if you are not doing the ITF (Chang Hong) patterns with sine wave, you are not doing them correctly. The developer of the art put this idea into his system. If they are being done in the old, flat line method then they are wrong. This doesn't mean they are bad -- just not what the founder wanted, and therefore, wrong. I don't mean any disrespect to any one out there. I'm just expressing my opinion. Gen. Choi evolved his system over several decades. With his passing it will be interesting to see what happens to his martial art." Mr. Martin, Please pardon the delay in replying. Many things had my attention as of late. Respectfully, I disagree with this whole concept of "being wrong." General Choi made up some patterns/forms. In forty+ years, he made several changes to those patterns/forms. If he lived another forty, undoubtedly he'd made more. So who's to say his last change would have been THE last change? Because he wrote the Taekwondo was complete? Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for General Choi and what he did to martial arts. But as an old man, nearing death, claiming that Taekwondo is "complete?" Please, it's a martial art and nothing is complete. We've all likely said that the only sure thing is that things change. As you stated, I will be interested to see what happens with sine wave. Should USTF go back to "flat line" method, will they be wrong? Should USTF stay with the sine wave while the other 20 ITF's go "flat line," will they be wrong? Will someone "evolve" sine wave and make it better....and therefore will they be "wrong?" Should GM Sereff have more say than the other ninth degrees promoted under General Choi? Or what about his son or some other relative? General Choi taught Taekwondo to many people in various arts. Many of those people followed him and became ITF/Choi disciples. Some did not and some split off the ITF. Seems General Choi made a few changes along the way and it was the new "correct" way. Those that did not join ITF and/or stay with it were suddenly "wrong." From that angle, it sounds like a marketing "you gotta be with me...or you're wrong" ploy. My thinking is that you are doing Chang Hun the way General Choi taught it last and the way GM Sereff deems best at this time. Should that change, and you change with it, you'll still be doing it correct by USTF standards. I am doing a different flavor of Chang Hun forms and mine are correct in my school and well received at tournaments and to my seniors. As always, I enjoy reading your input. Warm regards, Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 12:03:08 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] KOMA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you Mr. Clay for the explanation on the new organization.. much success on your Deming 0 business philosophy. using words from your post such as, client, business model, stakeholder, etc... you have more then clarified your ambitions in this new organization,, funny thing though, I read your rather long post twice and not once did you actually use the word HAPKIDO in any sentence....hmmm...... what's that smell I smell? Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://youroffers.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 08:11:55 -0500 (CDT) From: To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: KOMA Clarification Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Frank: ".....I am not indicating that any other organization is less than professional. I am indicating that I as a professional, and a martial artist, am greatly dissatisfied with what I view as the methods by which many of these organizations run. I, like Bruce, question the need for the "Confucian model" in any venture which involved the obtaining of capital, the running of an organization, and so forth. I do not anticipate an IPO or the like, but that is also subject to our success....." Lest I get roasted for something I didn't intend, I thought I would slip in a real quick clarification. Though it might be easy to think that I was discounting the role of the Confucian model in organizing a group, actually quite the opposite is true. I think the Confucian model would be a fine model-- maybe even an exemplary model to use. Who would argue with respected seniors being deferred to by juniors who are benevolently cared for by their seniors? I don't see anything wrong with that. What I take issue with is THAT is not whats happening. People INVOKE a Confucian model when its time to get their "propers" but then become painfully neglegent when its time to meet their responsibilities. Maybe what we need is a "truth in organization" guideline the way there is "truth in lending" or "truth in labeling", or "truth in packaging" guidelines. In this way, if a person wants to start an organization where he is basically in charge and calls all the shots and makes up all the agendas thats fine---- just tell everybody up-front. What I am objecting to is calling an organization a "federation" and then running it like a corporation. What I am objecting to is calling something an "association" and then running it like a sole-proprietorship. In the recent case, the KHF is NOT a federation. Representatives are NOT elected from the membership and do NOT have equitable influence in the policies or agendas of the organization. Korean nationals are obviously more influential in the organization and a handful of influential personalities dictate policy. I say again, I have no problem with a group being run like this, but lets just put it up front so that everybody knows this is the way the organization is run. Personally I think THIS is the reason that we continually have splits in the Hapkido community. Its not that we don't have organizations that aspire to equality and mutual respect, but rather that the reality never measures up to the dream and the membership gets tired of being told that it does. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 09:11:52 -0400 From: "Wilson, Byron" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Salute? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Could someone tell me the history/significance of the martial arts salute? The one I am referring to is where the right fist meets the left palm at center body and the left fingers either fold or stay erect. What style uses that and where is it appropriate and inappropriate? Thanks for your assistance Byron Wilson TKD Student [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of image001.jpg] --__--__-- Message: 5 From: blueknightpi@att.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 14:20:48 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: KOMA - Frank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Frank. Thanks for answering the question, and good luck with your venture. Vic Cushing > From: "Frank Clay" > ...KOMA-USA will be distinguished by several factors... one of which will be a > QMS, or a Quality Management System. The organization will follow the same > corporate style strategies used by major pharmaceutical and manufacturing > organizations. In the end, members will be viewed as clients, and school > owners who are members are to be viewed as stakeholders, which in reality, is > the actual situation. This may appear to be rather progressive, however this > particular model has shown itself to be very effective in the corporate world. > In my mind, we are martial arts professionals and KOMA-USA will be conducted > as a professional organization....(post snipped to save bandwidth)...I sincerely hope this does in fact clarify our position > somewhat. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 10:30:33 -0400 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Chris and Cindy Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Organizations Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I apologize if this has been covered already - I was unsubscribed for a while and after recently subscribing again, I saw the thread. Since there are so many HKD orgs. out there now, can someone list some of the more reputable ones and explain why you feel they are reputable. Thanks, Chris --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Jason Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 09:50:00 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts Business Support Organizations. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Can anyone comment on their experiences with Martial Arts Business Support Organizations such as MAIA etc.? I'm considering joining one and would appreciate some comments and recommendations. Thanks in advance, Jason --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Brian Beach Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 11:46:24 -0400 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] New Orgs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net On May 15, 2004, at 6:01 AM, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > 2. Kim Jin Pal is a KHF Master why did he start his own Assoc? GM Kim Jin Pal was a KHA master not a KHF master. He started his own org around the same time GM Ji Han Jae left the KHA. He is part of the KHF Advisory Board. He still has ties to GM Ji Han Jae, Kim Duk In , Han Bong Soo and Hwang Duk Kyu and others more reflecting the KHA at its inception. These were the people responsible for the spread of Hapkido to the world. To compare the start of the KOMA to the start of their org's strikes me of hubris. KOMA = corporatization of Hapkido !?!, is a sponsorship by Pepsi next? One free lesson under every 1 out of a 100 caps? A corporation by it's nature has responsibility to the ones providing the capital then to employees and the ones that they are providing the goods or service. I don't trust any corporation to look after my best interests. I don't believe that McDonald's is providing "healthier" fare because they are concerned with the public health. It just an attempt to keep bodies in the stores and profit margins up. And to site pharmaceutical and manufacturing companies as a model to emulate makes me question your motives even more so. Does this we'll have to go to Canada to get affordable training? Or will cheap labor be imported from over seas, Malaysia perhaps. Maybe its time to hire a marketing firm to get the proper spin on this before this thing gets off the ground. G*% D&^%# Bruce and Craig I think you guys are rubbing off on me. Brian --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 14:54:52 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: KOMA - Vic Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> That's pretty ambitious. Are you actually going to use something like the ISO-9001 requirements as the template for your QMS? My hat's off to you if you can actually figure out a way to apply the monitoring and controlling aspects to martial arts training/teaching. Will your QMS be centralized (created, administered and controlled by KOMA) or will the member dojangs have to create and implement their own individual QMS systems? I'm not saying something like this can't be done. It just seems like it would be hard to apply this type of management concept to something as subjective as learning/teaching the martial arts. Maybe I'm wrong. At any rate...good luck!!! CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "rich hodder" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 17:34:21 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] USKMAF Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Fellow DD'rs, I would like to take this opportunity to invite you to the June 12th, 2004 USKMAF Seminar in Seabrook (Houston, TX) TX. Master West and his highly experienced crew of mutants as well as Master McHenry and myself will be in attendance. If you are in the area or just plan to come down for a great day of slammin' around, let me know, and I will send you information. have fun what ever you do, Rich Hodder 281-326-4562 --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "silentflute" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] USKMAF Seminar Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 20:07:29 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If one was flying in, which airport is the closest? Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: "rich hodder" To: "Dojang Digest" Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 5:34 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] USKMAF Seminar > Dear Fellow DD'rs, > > I would like to take this opportunity to invite you to the June 12th, 2004 > USKMAF Seminar in Seabrook (Houston, TX) TX. Master West and his highly > experienced crew of mutants as well as Master McHenry and myself will be in > attendance. If you are in the area or just plan to come down for a great day > of slammin' around, let me know, and I will send you information. > > have fun what ever you do, > Rich Hodder > 281-326-4562 > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 19:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Iraq Police Mission Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Serve Overseas in the International Police Program! Now Accepting Applications for the Iraq Police Mission! 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DynCorp International is an Equal Opportunity Employer. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest