Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 03:01:49 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #263 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Questions about performing the forms or patterns (ITF) (Dave Steffen) 2. BIG DAY!!! (Richard Tomlinson) 3. Questions about performing the forms or patterns (ITF) (Robert Martin) 4. questions about performing forms(ITF) (henry henderson) 5. Re: Kim, Un Yong (ChunjiDo@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Dave Steffen Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 08:30:46 -0400 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Questions about performing the forms or patterns (ITF) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 14:59:06 -0400 > From: "Clint Cayson" > > My daughter will be tested for her rank (blue) and my question > about performing patterns and/or all patterns in general. This > might be posted previously but searching and reading the archives > will take some time. Anyway, what is the best stepping to perform > these patterns? Do-San, Yul-Gok, and Joong-Gun - by doing C-steps, > Sine Wave, Straight stepping or others? Also, what are the best > intervals for each step - seconds? And how long? Her instructors > somehow missed or omitted these techniques when they teached their > students (not to discredit them). However, if these ITF patterns > should be done with proper techniques or with respect -- why would > they not teach them properly? Any info will help a lot. Well, if she's testing for blue belt (4th Gup) and she doesn't already know this, her instructors have already discredited themselves. If they're not teaching properly, it's usually because they don't really understand what they're doing. What do they say when she asks them? Seriously, the answer very much depends on what her instructors are teaching her. If they are an actual ITF school, they should be teaching sine-wave (and if they're not, something's wrong). If they're not an ITF school (which from the sound of things is more likely) then they probably _were_ an ITF school at some point in the past, and the correct way is whatever the head instructor says is the right way. Without more information that's all we can tell you. As far as timing: patterns average very roughly 1 second per normal move. Some techniques are slow, some are fast motion. Sine wave patterns have a very definite rhythm to them (that's a big part of what the sine wave is for), and we have all sorts of terminology to describe complicated sequences: connected motion, continued motion, fast motion, etc. Generally the timing is standardized across the ITF, although there are always little variations. This is one of the things about sine-wave that can get rather complicated, which is why it's so important to take the patterns in order and really learn what they're teaching. For example: Chon-ji: no special timing Dan-Gun: one continued motion , defensive (the low block, high block sequence) Do-San: Several continued counter-offensive sequences (high side block reverse punch sequences), two fast-motion (the 1-2 punches after the front kicks). Won-Hyo: While moves 1-3 and 4-6, etc are technically done with no special timing, when done without count they typically end up being a 3-move sequence done with a continued motion. The circular blocks have more complicated timing issues in and of themselves, which really leads in to... Yuk-Gok: The hooking palm block sequences are the first connected motions to appear (although circular blocks provide some foreshadowing). And so on. If the school is not ITF but happens to be doing ITF patterns (which isn't all that unusual), it's likely that the instructor has specific ideas about all of this. But what _must_ be true is that, in your dojang, there is _some_ way that is correct. If your instructor can't tell you what that way is, then your school has problems. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Dave Steffen, Ph.D. Wave after wave will flow with the tide Raytheon IIS And bury the world as it does tkd-physics@comcast.net Tide after tide will flow and recede Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Richard Tomlinson" To: Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 11:57:36 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] BIG DAY!!! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am testing for my second dan, Taekwon Do today! The time since my first dan to now has been an incredible journey. I look foreward to training towards third. Being 45 I aspire to get to fourth while still alive and kickin! Sandy --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Robert Martin" To: Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 10:28:16 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Questions about performing the forms or patterns (ITF) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To answer your first question -- you daughter should do them as she has been taught. It is up to the instructor(s) as to how the patterns are preformed. As to your second question -- several things could be happening. 1. maybe your daughter doesn't understand what has been taught 2. The instructors don't know some of the methods that you are asking about because they aren't part of the modern ITF (any one of the three). 3. And lastly, maybe the instructors are just bad. If this is the case, find a new school. Robert Martin > Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 14:59:06 -0400 > From: "Clint Cayson" > To: > Subject: [The_Dojang] Questions about performing the forms or patterns (ITF) > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Hello, > > My daughter will be tested for her rank (blue) and my question about > performing patterns and/or all patterns in general. This might be posted > previously but searching and reading the archives will take some time. > Anyway, what is the best stepping to perform these patterns? Do-San, Yul-Gok, > and Joong-Gun - by doing C-steps, Sine Wave, Straight stepping or others? > Also, what are the best intervals for each step - seconds? And how long? Her > instructors somehow missed or omitted these techniques when they teached their > students (not to discredit them). However, if these ITF patterns should be > done with proper techniques or with respect -- why would they not teach them > properly? Any info will help a lot. > > Thank you. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "henry henderson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 13:08:40 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] questions about performing forms(ITF) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr Cayson, While those techniques are useful, you will have many people debating which technique is the best i think its left up to your daughter. Most teachers dont teach C-step,sine wave etcc..beause they werent taught it themselves or either they didnt like it. Personally, i was never taught anything other then "Regular stepping" and even in my karate and now TKD training it has sufficed enough. The Intervals are definately up to your daughter, because she has to feel the patterns within herself. Im sure someone on this list will say what they look for while testing these forms, or mention suggestions. There is a difference between "knowing the form" and " knowing the movements". Knowing the form is having a developed rythm, not just knowing the movements its kinda like going with the beat of your heart. If she knows the form then she will naturally develop her own style of practicing and preforming the tuls. If she only knows the movements then she still has lots to practice. How can you tell the difference between knowing the form, and knowing the movements... Well when you know the form you can have steadfast concentration, there will be no "my bad" mess ups while executing movements. When you know the form you can do it blindfolded, when you know the form you can feel the form in your soul. When you know the movements you always tend to mess up, or lack focus,mainly how you do when you just learn how to do it. Suggestions, is for your daughter to develop what feels best for her, her teachers probably never taught it because tkd is an ARt. And part of learning any ARt is taking parts of yourself and channelling them into what you do. Whille 1-2 second pause between each movement is quite sufficient, it might feel better for her to do 3-4 second intervals. Good luck to her on her test Respectfully yours in Tae Kwon Henry Henderson,II -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 14:59:06 -0400 From: "Clint Cayson" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Questions about performing the forms or patterns (ITF) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello, My daughter will be tested for her rank (blue) and my question about performing patterns and/or all patterns in general. This might be posted previously but searching and reading the archives will take some time. Anyway, what is the best stepping to perform these patterns? Do-San, Yul-Gok, and Joong-Gun - by doing C-steps, Sine Wave, Straight stepping or others? Also, what are the best intervals for each step - seconds? And how long? Her instructors somehow missed or omitted these techniques when they teached their students (not to discredit them). However, if these ITF patterns should be done with proper techniques or with respect -- why would they not teach them properly? Any info will help a lot. Thank you. _________________________________________________________________ Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://youroffers.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 18:25:44 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Kim, Un Yong Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "30 years heading up the WTF, 30 months in prison. Should be interesting to see who is elected on June 11 to run the WTF next..." -------- yeah....little scared to see if sang lee gets it. will show theyve learned nothing. Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest