Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 03:01:51 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #278 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: GM Benko (C. Bonner) 2. Re: Benko (ISA Headquarters) 3. USKMAF Seminar in Seabrook TX (Wicker, H. Keith) 4. From another group....Someone with something to say (Jye nigma) 5. RE: Re: Benko (Rick Clark) 6. Master West's seminar (Mark Gittleman) 7. Sea Side Training with Master West (Braeswood Martial Arts) 8. Re: Re: Benko (Ray Terry) 9. Re: From another group....Someone with something to say (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "C. Bonner" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:09:36 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: GM Benko Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net               MR. Benko's H.K.D. is good, and so is his T.K.D. Very old school! Run's his org's very traditionaly also. His weapon's program's, if i remember correctly, were taken from Japanese/Okinawan systems, with K.M.A. as a base.  He was a senior in Gen. Choi's I.T.F., but left in "74", when the U.S.T.F was founded. From what i gather he is senior to MR. Serref, and was suppose to head the org. But Serreff had more contact's(money backing) And got it instead. I was not there. This is what i have picked up. no one will know for sure except the involved people!   Hope this help's,        Clint Bonner ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get fast, reliable Internet access with MSN 9 Dial-up – now 3 months FREE! --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "ISA Headquarters" To: Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:01:49 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Benko Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Does anyone remember, besides me, when GM Benko only had his MTA (Midwest taekwondo Association)? George --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Wicker, H. Keith" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:08:48 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] USKMAF Seminar in Seabrook TX Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I just wanted to thank GM Hodder and GM West for a great HKD seminar this past Saturday. I enjoyed seeing old friends and meeting new ones. I highly recommend attending a seminar with GM West if you get the chance!! Keith Wicker Wicker's Korean Martial Arts, USKMAF League City, TX --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 13:31:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] From another group....Someone with something to say Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Here are the negatives to ninjutsu: It doesn't share the global "sport-art" culture. It is elitist in that sense, because the attitude of those teaching ninjutsu is that we are learning something much more serious than how to be competitive, and that is that we're learning to deal with life and death actions and decisions. So a lot of sport-arts diss ninjutsu for that reason. We're not a sport because we teach techniques that quite simply would rip apart bodies if used in a sport setting. Yeah, let's see someone use oni-kudaki in a sport setting! You'd rip someone's shoulder out of socket in no time. My teacher gave us a quick tip for dirty fighting based on this, if you're ever in a fight with a trained individual and he gets you in some kind of lock or something a good way to get out is to tap out! Tap the ground or tap him, and because of the sport-art mind-set he's likely to simply let go because he's been conditioned to do so! Lol. Secondly, most ninjutsu dojos have placed an emphasis on basic learning movement to a degree such that they have eliminated ran-dori (sparring). My own dojo has actually ramped up its ran-dori component and I participate in a good amount of sparring and fighting each week and have gained a great deal of actual competence in fighting because of that. But for most dojos they don't spar much or at all. The result is that a lot of ninjutsu practitioners have a lot of theory knowledge that they haven't tested in the heat of conflict, and they are essentially wimps who refuse to fight when challenged. Many ninjutsu ppl have gotten their butts kicked by other fighters simply because they haven't applied their ninjutsu knowledge in a sparring setting, but these are mere no-blackbelt students! On the other hand, ninjutsu sees sparring in other arts as a shortcut method that ingrains bad habits early in the learner, and we want you to master the basics before learning to fight with them. Which frankly is an approach I agree with. My first year of training I never sparred once, and I focussed on the basics, and I am glad that I did. I really have to laugh at watching some karate classes where they are simply throwing kids into sparring and developing attribute-dependent fighters. Such a setting will tend to produce students with a lot of fury but little deeply developed technique. Meaning that they will have ultimately many holes in their technique which can be exploited. This is why it takes 4-5 years to achieve black belt in ninjutsu, and roughly 1-2 years in other arts. Ninjutsu does have basic yet deep conceptual ideas about fighting which take a lot of effort to grasp even though they are taught explicitly. There is enough knowledge in our art that you can continually train in new things without sparring, I think that's a great thing, yet it should be balanced eventually by actual competency in the person who is studying the art, in time. As for instructors being money hungry, stick to Bujinkan instructors and you will have a competent instructor who's not out strictly for money. My own teacher is an excellent teacher and puts a great deal of effort into us learning, and so was my last teacher. I wouldn't say either lacked commitment, but I consider myself lucky in having found great teachers. As for the weapons vs open-hand training emphasis I would like to explain one of the most wonderful aspects of our art: ninjutsu's taijutsu, or unarmed portion of training, is THE ROOT from which everything else in the art extends. From the trunk of taijutsu comes all the branches of the various weapons and everything else. The art is peculiar in its movements to the degree that it has consciously chosen movements which will be weapon friendly. Because of this, the taijutsu practitioner masters weapons only by mastering our unarmed fighting. There is no changing gears, there is no fundamental difference in this art between striking someone with a fist or with a stick. Each of the kamae (non-static stances) are designed to incorporate weapons, and the movements have them deeply instilled. For instance, in the kihon, which is our set of basic practice movements, you can see that many of the movements that we use as hand to hand striking can be performed in exactly the same manner if you have a sword/stick/knife/chain/bo/rifle/pistol/etc in your hand/arms. An ura-shuto from bobi-no-kamae for instance is a hand-to-hand strike which looks exactly like drawing a samurai sword from your belt except that you don't actually have the sword in your hand (and you strike with the edge of the hand). So the weapons portion and the unarmed portion of fighting are tightly unified, which is another aspect that makes the art intensely practical. Unlike some arts which avoid weapons work or arts that have to sacrifice their unarmed concepts and learn a different movement and striking system for each weapon they choose to study, ninjutsu has it all integrated. So as to your question, which does it focus more on the hand to hand or the weapons, the truth is neither! By learning hand-to-hand stuff you are improving greatly your weapons work, and by working with weapons you will learn things that will improve your hand-to-hand skills, because they are both the same thing. The only difference is that weapons is harder, and our Soke Hatsumi says that when you start working with weapons you will discover the holes in your taijutsu (unarmed), and that if you're bad at taijutsu you'll be really bad when you start doing weapons because the margin of error is smaller when using weapons (let a punch through once and it ain't over, let a blade through once and it may be over). As to Silat I would say ninjutsu is superior for a number of reasons, though that is certainly a respectable art. What weirds me out about it is the animal worship, and the spirit channeling wherein the practitioner in the higher levels is actually said to 'channel' the spirit of a jaguar or jungle-cat while they fight. Practitioners of Silat also are urged to build up their neck muscles and eventually to attack with the mouth like a jungle cat would. I mentioned this to my instructor and he kinda laughed and mentioned that in a world of AIDS and other diseases that might be a negative practice. In what I've actually seen of the art it appears light and bouncy, but I haven't seen that much. As to kempo, do some research on our previous Soke Toshitsugu Takamatsu. He traveled, fought, and taught extensively for ten years in China where he was a very successful martial arts teacher (even though he didn't tell them he was a ninja). He had a chance to spar with the best China had to offer and came up on top. But kung-fu at the master level is said to look very much like our taijutsu at the master level. I would say however that it would be a much longer road to mastery since there is much more fluff and extraneous action to cut out of many kung-fu systems before the purely practical is perfected. I've also laughed watching beginning kung-fu classes where the practice consists of things like acrobatic jump-turn-kickbackwards-turn-land maneuvers. Yeah, that's what the absolute beginner needs to learn. Ninjutsu's focus on nautral striking is also appealing to me, since I'd prefer not to tear up my body and knee joints like some arts do. Ninjutsu has very interesting and different kicking strikes because of this. But kempo as a word simply means all the arts of China, or all the arts of Japan. So it's difficult to give you an exact answer. I certainly respect an expert in kung-fu, but I still prefer ninjutsu for many aspects that kung-fu doesn't have at all, like the weapons integration we discussed before. Though I will say that Bruce Lee's complaint that many of the Chinese systems were dead is a similar complaint that ninjutsu would level against many current systems. Ninjutsu's focus is to continually update itself to adapt to the times and challenges of the age. That's why you won't find yourself training in yari (spear) or kyoketsu-shogi (sickle and weighted chain) much, except for concept-learning work or the study of historical waza (techniques). But you will find knife training, chain (belts, ties, rollled up shirts etc), stick, staff, and the more modern gun training, because these are the weapons of the day. Meanwhile the karate school down the street from me is urging their students to purchase nunchakus and sai. Right. Just about anything can be used as a stick or staff, many things can be used as a chain, and many things as a tessen (iron fan) like a handgun for instance. Try to find a nunchaku equivalent in the real world, or sai for that matter. My 'final answer' is that ninjutsu is a great choice if your goal is real-world protection skills and you have a competent teacher. If you just want exercise and protection is barely even a goal then choose a more calisthenic sport art, though some of these may have negative effects on the health of your knee joints because of their physically unnatural kicks which the body isn't designed to accomodate. Thai kickboxing for instance is notoriously difficult on the body, professional kickboxers in Thailand literally retire at 25-27 years of age, because they are then too tore up to continue. It is both a vicious art physically and hard on the joints, especially the knees. Karate and other arts can be similarly bad having the same kinds of kicks. But again, if your goal is to become physicall competent then ninjutsu is indeed a good choice given competent instruction. So I hope that that adequately addresses the questions you've posed, if you have any follow-up q's feel free to note me. ~AP --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Benko Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:25:22 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If I remember correctly the Midwest Tae Kwon Do Assn. was that of Hang Un Lee prior to the start up the ATA. That's been some time back and my memory may be a bit off. Rick Clark "Illegitimis non carborundum." ("Don't let the bastards grind you down.") - Gen. Joseph Stilwell www.ao-denkou-kai.org > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Benko > > Does anyone remember, besides me, when GM Benko only had his MTA (Midwest > taekwondo Association)? > > George --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:33:24 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Mark Gittleman Subject: [The_Dojang] Master West's seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I wanted to thank Master West and his crew for a great seminar and Master Hodder for hosting it! The Ki strikes were especially fun. (how you feeling Lawren?) I will definitely be in Mississippi for the August seminar and I hope to see everyone there! Thanks again Master West! Joan Gittleman --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Braeswood Martial Arts" To: Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:43:36 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sea Side Training with Master West Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greeting to all participants of this past weekend of Sea Side training, WOW what a great Saturday full of SSL. As always the training was as great as ever with Master West and his "crew of mutant"... I personally don't see what the "muntant" part is they seem just like me... or is that it? LOL On a serious note, all of us from Braeswood Martial Arts had a great time and are looking forward to the August events. Master West as always it is great to see you and am glad the weather was better on this trip down south. See you all in August! Kat --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Benko To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have some old certs from a USMTF, Mid West Tae Kwon-Do Federation. The President's name/signature is not really readable, but it looks like it might be Lee. ??? It is a half hangul, half english cert. Ray > If I remember correctly the Midwest Tae Kwon Do Assn. was that of Hang Un > Lee prior to the start up the ATA. That's been some time back and my memory > may be a bit off. > > Rick Clark > > "Illegitimis non carborundum." ("Don't let the bastards grind you down.") - > Gen. Joseph Stilwell > > www.ao-denkou-kai.org > > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Benko > > > > Does anyone remember, besides me, when GM Benko only had his MTA (Midwest > > taekwondo Association)? > > > > George --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] From another group....Someone with something to say To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > As to Silat I would say ninjutsu is superior for a number of reasons, though > that is certainly a respectable art. What weirds me out about it is the > animal worship, and the spirit channeling wherein the practitioner in the > higher levels is actually said to 'channel' the spirit of a jaguar or > jungle-cat while they fight. Practitioners of Silat also are urged to build > up their neck muscles and eventually to attack with the mouth like a jungle > cat would. Jeez... This person clearly knows little to nothing about silat. But nothing wrong with a fighter building up their neck muscles. As a matter of fact, I'd recommend it. > But kempo as a word simply means all the arts of China, or all the arts of > Japan. No it doesn't. Kempo/Kenpo/Kuntao/Kwonbup/Chuanfa all mean fist method or fist law. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest