From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #282 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: TakeDowns (Edward) 2. Re: Re: [The_Dojang] TakeDowns (tburgh@bellsouth.net) 3. Book of 5 Rings translation by Cleary (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 4. Re: Takedowns (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 5. RE: Re: Takedowns (Rick Clark) 6. Re: Dano festival (ABurrese@aol.com) 7. Re: TakeDowns (Tony McDonald) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 02:13:24 -0500 From: Edward To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] TakeDowns Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I will try not to go off in the wrong direction here. I was in the situation not that long ago. "Show me what to do if someone attacks me." (I later found out that this person {female} had recently been assaulted). me "um,...no" Her "why not" me "I am not willing to show you one or two things and give you a false sense of security" Frankly I have been training in HKD for 4.5 years and I certainly don't think that I would feel comfortable in just any old situation using my skills. The fact of the matter is, I don't want to know, in real life. To address what Tony has asked about. Why are you trying to hold the guy. I teach new students, the number one reason for a technique is to escape control. after that, the field is leveled. If you were defending your friend, and you friend went into the store to call the cops, ya know what, let the dude go. Thats why we pay the police. They get to restrain bad guys. You attempted to use a trechnique you had seen only weeks earlier. Here's a question for the group. How long do y'all train witha technique before you really feel it has become a part of you. My advice to Tony, find a good Dojang or a Dojo and train in some HKD or Judo or JuJuts for several years. I don't want to sound flip about this, its just that this concepts take time, they are not tricks that are easily learned. That's all I got for tonight. Edward P.S. I just recently passed by BB test in HKD two weeks ago. I am still sore from the test. Tony McDonald wrote: >Most of you misunder stand my e-mail hehe ok well here's what happened >I live in Kent, Washington one of the worst places to live in, in Washington >and >one day me and a friend of mine were walking home after a day at highschool, >it was about 7:30ish and it was getting dark so we decided to pick up the >pace, and what happened was someone grabbed my friend and threw him into a >nearby wall, and acting quickly I grabbed the attacker and quickly put him >into a grapple move that my master had shown me a few weeks earlier, he >released my friend and we started screaming for help, I told my friend to run >into a near by shop and get help while I hold him, but as I didn't know he was >stronger than I thought but I figured with my size advantage I could hold him >down, he threw me onto the ground and then started beating me harder that I >could ever imagine, but the cops and the store keeper and 5 people who worked >there ran out and subdued him until the police arrived, friends, police, and >different masters of different schools have shown me different things to do if >this happens again, but I am asking for help on learning takedowns so I can >subdue him easier without getting the snot beat outta me (Just incase) > >~Tony > >P.S. The reason for the attack was that the person who attacked us had >something against my friends brother >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 From: To: Subject: Re: Re: [The_Dojang] TakeDowns Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 8:50:44 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Now I understand the part about wanting to find a way to deal with situations that don't require excessive "violence." The thing you have to understand is that even if the person you are trying to deal with is a drunk cousin at the family reunion, the intensity you put into the technique is going to have to match the intensity he is putting into resisting. That amount is just something you will have to feel out. Another tip... whenever you do a technique that is designed to hold, if you have any concerns about his ability to escape, put him on the ground, on his stomach to continue the hold. **Bonus tip** When you go down, never put both knees on the ground. That goes for kneeling on his neck as well. Always keep one knee up for mobility. Good luck in your search. Ricky Thornburgh --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 08:36:41 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Book of 5 Rings translation by Cleary Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, You asked some time back about Cleary's translation of Go Rin No Sho. Sorry I have been busy. All my extra time lately has gone into planning a regional Black belt camp for my org. Below is the info you asked for from Amazon: Hardcover: 168 pages ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.71 x 6.96 x 6.38 Publisher: Shambhala Publications; 1st Shambhala edition (June 24, 2003) ISBN: 1590300408 It also includes a translation of Yagyu Munenori's "The Book of Family Traditions on the Art of War," which is interesting from a historical prospective but overrated by most reviews in my opinion. Danny Dunn --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:00:40 -0500 (CDT) From: To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Takedowns Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Tony: ".....there ran out and subdued him until the police arrived, friends, police, and different masters of different schools have shown me different things to do if this happens again, but I am asking for help on learning takedowns so I can subdue him easier without getting the snot beat outta me (Just incase)...." To start with I need to say that I completely agree with Ricks' (Clark) earlier post. I tend to come out of a very traditional Hapkido place and need to remember not everyone shares either my background or my view of things. The reason I start with this little disclaimer is that I think you may not be aware that in your posts you are actually asking for two things. As Craig said in his post, if you are interested in learning quick, basic and effective takedowns real fast, a simple HS wrestling class would be more than adequate. However you ALSO are asking to be able to humanely restrain the individual (say, until the police come). I have to tell you that in the Hapkido I teach the issue of "humane" takes a back seat to ending the fight and preserving myself. You know how in the news tapes you see some perp on COPS being retrained by 6 or seven policemen? Its NOT that the guy is "All That" but rather than they are trying to restrain the guy with as little damage to HIM and themselves as possible. This means exerting more energy than the guy. In Hapkido, the Economy of Energy principle says I never work harder than my attacker. This means that I will use whatever is necessary to end the fight and that does not bode well for the attacker. In your post you indicated that you tried to restrain your attacker and be humane and for your trouble got smacked around pretty good. Hapkido is a "martial" NOT a "civil" art. Think about the things you would do on a battlefield to survive and ask yourself if the circumstances in daily street life would merit doing some of those things to another person? A great many of the techniques in Hapkido started out as breaks, rips and chokes--- not as the modern pain compliance we know and practice today. Now, having said ALL of that I know that there are folks out there who teach Hapkido from different views and maybe some of them have softened up their material so that its a bit more acceptable for use in the typical shoving match. Given the situation you described in your post, though, I think you are asking to use the wrong tool for the wrong situation. Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Takedowns Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:54:22 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Tony and Bruce, and list :-) > From: bsims@midwesthapkido.com [mailto:bsims@midwesthapkido.com] > Dear Tony: > To start with I need to say that I completely agree with Ricks' (Clark) > earlier post. It's always nice to find agreement :-) > I have to tell you > that in the Hapkido I teach the issue of "humane" takes a back seat to > ending the fight and preserving myself. Nice to find agreement again. In the martial arts we train with techniques that have the potential to cause serious damage. In the class setting we practice techniques in a safe manner so that we can continue to practice and have training partners the next day. Locks and the like are applied until you tap out. So we are training with a mindset to release a lock when pain to our partner is such that they submit. Here in lies a problem for us in our training. It is commonly accepted that we will respond to a stimulus in a manner that reflects our previous experience. We train to extinguish previous behavior and replace those responses with new responses. So - if we learn in a class setting that we release pressure from an individual when they tap out, or we back off applying pain when they exhibit pain we "may" have a problem. In my opinion in self-defense situations (out on the street) there is not much room for pain compliance techniques. Does it have a place? Sure, but limited in my opinion. Joint locks are in my estimation designed to break a joint NOT put them in pain to control them. By the very definition when we do not carry a technique to its intended conclusion we dilute the technique and potentially dilute it to the point where it becomes ineffective. > you see some perp on COPS being retrained by 6 or seven policemen? Its > NOT that the guy is "All That" but rather than they are trying to > restrain the guy with as little damage to HIM and themselves as possible. This reinforces my point. Police are limited in the response they can use, and with good cause. However, this is a pet peeve of mine, police as a general rule receive poor and in my opinion too little training in techniques that involve less than deadly force. This is a separate thread for a later time :-) > This means exerting more energy than the guy. In Hapkido, the Economy of > Energy principle says I never work harder than my attacker. I hate to disagree with someone who has been in agreement with me up to this time. I would argue that I should work a "bit" harder than my attacker. As an example if I am applying a lock and we both exert the same amount of force then there is a deadlock. If they can exert a bit more force they escape from a technique. If I exert a bit more force then the lock stays in place and creates pain. > that I will use whatever is necessary to end the fight and that does not > bode well for the attacker. Agreed. > Bruce Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 6 From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 22:54:36 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Dano festival Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray posted article: Gangneung Province Hopes to Boost Tourism with Dano Festival ******************* If in Korea, this is a fun event to visit. The title and first line of the article are wrong though, Gangneung is the city, not the province. Later in the article when it said Gangwon province, it was right. I still have trouble with the new romanization. It will always be Kangnung to me, since that was how I spelled it when I lived there. And it will be Kangwan Province. I have been to a couple Tano Festivals (yes, I'm used to the old spelling with the T rather than the D also) and they were fun. Lots of food, booths selling stuff, traditional festivities including Sirum (Korean wrestling). Those that make it, have fun! Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Tony McDonald" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] TakeDowns Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:17:39 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ricky Bruce and Edward, Thank you all for answering my post and I will take everything into consideration, but to answer Edward's question, it takes years of practice in order to perfect a skill, for every situation, fight, and just to show it off in a demonstration although this technique was rather simple and it kind of gave me a false sense of security thinking, "hey if I use this I win" but anyway thank you all for all your support and Congratulations! Edward for your BB test in HKD ~Tony McDonald P.S. I am currently taking Judo at a near by school and it has shown me a lot of things that will help me in the future i.e. you cant win every fight using grapples, sometimes you just have to run away --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest