Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 03:01:52 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #286 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. KJN Timmerman's Ohio Seminar (Wilson, Byron) 2. Takedowns and Wrestling (Alan Jay Weiner) 3. Re: Takedowns and Wrestling (Jeremy Anderson) 4. Force (Randall Sexton) 5. Re: Takedowns and Wrestling (Ray Terry) 6. more on Benko (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 08:05:50 -0400 From: "Wilson, Byron" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] KJN Timmerman's Ohio Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Publicly, I wish to thank GM Timmerman for coming to Norwalk, Ohio for last Saturday's seminar. For those of you that have never experienced one of his training sessions, I can only tell you that it is well worth the money and distance traveled. My best summation is that if, as I do, you measure the worth of the training by what "new" things you learn and how much ignorance it exposes in you, his training will make you feel as dumb as a box of rocks! After several years in the martial arts, he made me question foundational aspects of my art but not disrespect them; simply reevaluate them and expand their application. Thank you, Kwanjangnim Timmerman. I hope to join you at another time, soon. TKD Student, Byron Wilson [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of image001.jpg] --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Alan Jay Weiner To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 13:49:59 -0400 Organization: Technology 21 Subject: [The_Dojang] Takedowns and Wrestling Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Several have suggested high-school wrestling as a place to learn takedowns quickly. I'm wondering about that though... My nephew is on the high school wrestling team. He and I have played around a few times - with interesting results. Certainly the moves he learns he's fast and effective - especially that one where he drops forward (onto his knee?) and grabs my leg and lifts - he's especially fast at that. He also drilled in movements to maintain his balance; I was quite impressed with how I'd do something and he'd counter it by foot movement. However, every time he tried to grab me, I'd do something to get out - and it was always things he wasn't ready for; the moves I'd do were illegal in wrestling. Almost every one involved a strike or two - I had to work hard not to hit him. Other moves he lost to were things like controlling his head, joint locks, or pressure points. (we're about the same weight - 190lbs; I'm a bit taller, btw. I'd guess he's stronger than I am though... He's 18; I'm 49...) I don't know what would happen in an all-out fight; I could see it go either way - his rapid takedowns vs. my "illegal and unexpected" moves... (I never kicked him, btw, although I did do hockdowns, hip-throws, etc. My thumbs into his kidneys completely took him by surprise... :) I see the problem being that his focus on a sport with rules trains him to not-use various techniques (and expect they won't be used on him) which is fine in a tournament, but won't work on the street. Correspondingly, my nephew pointed out most of my moves wouldn't help him in wrestling - his goal is to pin his opponent rather than simply end the fight. I think this wouldn't be a problem with someone learning wrestling moves without actually training *for* wrestling though. But I think if someone's interested in grappling techniques - and is going to continue beyond a few days instruction - they should find an instructor who will teach them *fighting* rather than *wrestling*. (it goes without saying that ongoing training really needs an instructor, regardless of what one studies...) Thoughts, anyone? - Al - -- -- Alan Weiner -- alan@ajw.com -- http://www.ajw.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 12:35:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeremy Anderson Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Takedowns and Wrestling To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net When I was training in judo, we used to have wrestlers come in to play with us. The big thing I noticed was how rapidly I could get out of the pins they tried. A lot of wrestling pins are designed to hold for...what is it, three seconds? In judo, the hold needs to last much longer than that. 30-secs if I recall correctly... Jeremy Anderson. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Randall Sexton" To: Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:38:04 -1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Force Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "I don't want to get into a battle of strength vs. strength. In fact I do want to use the minimal force possible in all situations." As a point of comparision or perhaps something to work toward, I just looked at a video clip last night of Tai Chi legend Ma Yueh-Liang (1901-1998) taking on volunteers from a crowd in China for push-hands exercise. This was at 92 years of age and he sent people flying with movements that were hard to detect. Hard to choose here...force against force or "whoops, why you keep falling down?" Randall Sexton www.LaughingHara.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Takedowns and Wrestling To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > When I was training in judo, we used to have wrestlers come in to play > with us. The big thing I noticed was how rapidly I could get out of the > pins they tried. A lot of wrestling pins are designed to hold for...what > is it, three seconds? In judo, the hold needs to last much longer than > that. 30-secs if I recall correctly... But the pin is different in that both shoulder blades must be held in contact with the mat. When one comes off the mat the count stops. I believe in judo you just (big just here) have to keep the person on their back while keeping your legs free. Yes? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] more on Benko Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Back on the topic of Gm Benko... a friend found a copy of a 1984 Whos Who in Karate. While other Hapkido people are listed, Gm Benko is listed only in one art, as a 6th Dan in Taekwondo. FWIW. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest