Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:46:04 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #287 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Takedowns and Wrestling (Edward) 2. NKMAA Seminar (Kevin) 3. Re: Takedowns and Wrestling (Jeremy Anderson) 4. Wrestling Should we or Souldn't we? (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 5. Jungki Hapkido Seminar New Jersey Aug. 21, 2004 12-4 p.m. (Michael D'Aloia) 6. From another Group...TKD's answer to grappling (Jye nigma) 7. Re: Takedowns and Wrestling (luke rose) 8. RE: Takedowns and Wrestling (Stovall, Craig) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:50:17 -0500 From: Edward To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Takedowns and Wrestling Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have been training in Judo for almost 2 years now, so I am close to knowing almost nothing about the sport. Another year or so and I should have no clue. We always have wrestlers come in and sometimes they come to the HKD class also. The type of Judo we are practicing is much closer to DRAJJ or BJJ with a bit of Catch thrown in for fun. It all boils down to why are you learning a technique. The wrestlers have a really hard time with the "fighting from guard". Because being on you back is the last thing they want to do. In the HKD class we approach the ground concepts differently. In a wrestling of Judo situation there are certain rules there for your safety. In a self defense style of ground work, everything has to be considered. I love judo, but as a self defense against someone who is free to punch away... I want other options. I like to think about it like physical problem solving. They more things I learn the more I can bring to the puzzle. Last thought, there is nothing quiet like going thru Randori with a Judo guy who says let's allow anything up to light striking, and popping a pressure point on him. You can change their whole world in an instant. Ok that's enough of my rambling Edward Ray Terry wrote: >>When I was training in judo, we used to have wrestlers come in to play >>with us. The big thing I noticed was how rapidly I could get out of the >>pins they tried. A lot of wrestling pins are designed to hold for...what >>is it, three seconds? In judo, the hold needs to last much longer than >>that. 30-secs if I recall correctly... >> >> > >But the pin is different in that both shoulder blades must be held in contact >with the mat. When one comes off the mat the count stops. I believe in judo >you just (big just here) have to keep the person on their back while keeping >your legs free. Yes? > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Kevin" To: Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:31:39 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] NKMAA Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To those who are interested in the August 21st Seminar in Portland, OR with SJN Rudy Timmerman. Please contact me with any questions. kevin_janisse@hotmail.com 971-645-1152 Look forward to working out with many of you again. Sincerely, Kevin Janisse NKMAA --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 05:45:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeremy Anderson Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Takedowns and Wrestling To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net --- Ray Terry wrote: > > When I was training in judo, we used to have wrestlers come in to play > > with us. The big thing I noticed was how rapidly I could get out of > the > > pins they tried. A lot of wrestling pins are designed to hold > for...what > > is it, three seconds? In judo, the hold needs to last much longer > than > > that. 30-secs if I recall correctly... > > But the pin is different in that both shoulder blades must be held in > contact > with the mat. When one comes off the mat the count stops. I believe in > judo > you just (big just here) have to keep the person on their back while > keeping > your legs free. Yes? Certainly true. I think the point I was trying illustrate was that different arts/sports train for different purposes, and the techniques they use and the strengths/weaknesses of those techniques/arts/sports will reflect that. Jeremy Anderson. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 08:46:48 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Wrestling Should we or Souldn't we? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Al, You are right on a lot of what you talked about. Scholastic wrestling will teach a person a lot of things, takedowns, leverage, and working with your body on the ground. But in an of itself, I don't think anyone would say go study scholastic wrestling as a sole martial source. Scholastic wrestling, high school and below have way to many rules for safety and to make it more competitive. You can't lock your hands together, actually they can't even touch unless the rules have been changed in the last few years, while you are holding someone, you can't throw the person higher than your hip and you can not manipulate the head by itself. I believe that Jeremy and Ray also posted on this. The goal of scholastic wrestling is a 3 second pin or 3/5 second near fall with a lot of action and safely. They are not taught or prepared to fight. But some of my students enter tournaments, and I help them train for it, which is also totally different from fighting and the way we normally train. On the other side of things, scholastic wrestling teaches you the same basics as in freestyle and catch can. And it is important to get on the mat and be able to go all out while practicing the basics. So, I agree with those who recommended scholastic wrestling because there are some important things to be learned from wrestling, even scholastic, in the way of basic takedowns and movement on the mat. Also in the way of going all out against someone else on the ground. But no, I would not recommend studying scholastic wrestling as your only martial endeavor for anyone. It is too limited. But I think the original question was where can someone learn some good takedowns quick. Scholastic wrestling is a good source for that. Danny Dunn <<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Michael D'Aloia" Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:49:11 -0400 (EDT) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Jungki Hapkido Seminar New Jersey Aug. 21, 2004 12-4 p.m. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi. I would like to invite fellow martial artists to a Jungki Hapkido seminar in New Jersey on Saturday, August 21, 2004 from 12-4 p.m. at Iron Eagle Hapkido 155 Valley Road Clifton, NJ 07013 (20 minutes from NYC) (973) 754-0105 hapkido@optonline.net Seminar cost is $30.00. The seminar will be taught by the Jungki Hapkido Masters. Please print out information below and mail with check/money order payable to Iron Eagle to the above address. Registration must be received by Aug. 1, 2004. Limited space is available. Registration at the door is $40.00 pending space availability. Hope to see you in August. Name:_______________________________ Address:____________________________ Phone:___________________ Email:___________ Style:___________________ Rank:____________________ Amount Enclosed:____________________ Michael D'Aloia www.jungkihapkidoamerica.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:30:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] From another Group...TKD's answer to grappling Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I just finished reading all the posts on this thread...(45 minutes). It looks like you guys don't like each other, but I'm glad you all hugged and made up in the end. Anyway, since this was originally a post about Korean arts...but moved to Tae Kwon Do, I'd like to throw in my two cents. My brother and I were having a talk about Tae Kwon Do and its emphasis on kicks. First of all, I have an assumption that TKD is kick oriented...so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. So..logically, I felt that TKD would have certain disadvantages at close or grappling range. Then, my brother brought up an interesting point. Tae Kwon Doists train their legs to the point that they exceed their proficiency of their arms. Therefore, they'd have something at close ranges. My brother also added that because me and him didn't have that comfort of leg ability, that we two could not understand what a TKD master would feel. Personally, I still cannot imagine that would occur at close range. Maybe someone here could explain. Also, as a response to some posts here, I cannot in my heart believe that in 40 years, no one in TKD invented something to counter grappling. Just my opinion. Enjoy. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:08:44 -0700 (PDT) From: luke rose To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Takedowns and Wrestling Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I used to take on a state champ on the mats when I first got into grappling. It was amazing how fast he could take me down. However, he was used to pinning someone on their back which is a place I'm quite comfortable with. He only pinned me once. That was the first time we went at it. After that he just couldn't pin me. The main tactic I used was relaxation. He was used to people always fighting against him and that's how he got them into those horrific holds. He taught me a lot about basic take-downs, using the leg strength instead of arms to get them down and using your weight instead of muscle when on top of an opponent to save stamina. In my opinion a basic wrestler has a big advantage on the street. Most of the fights I've seen or have heard about end up in some sort of wrestling match. Weather it's on your feet or (usually) on the ground. With a small amount of training (for both parties) I doubt a formal martial artist would hold up in a street fight against a wrestler. However with more in depth training I would like to think it would go the other way. Any opinions? Luke --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:56:01 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Takedowns and Wrestling Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Well, I was the one that made the wrestling suggestion, and I stand by that assertion. Nothing else on the planet is going to teach you takedowns in a more time-effective manner than working out with competent wrestlers. To that mix, I would add working out with competent Judoka in order to cover the complexities of working with clothing (wrestling takedowns do not generally assume/utilize clothing for handles). That was the nature of the original question, and I think my suggestion has much merit. However, you bring up some good points with your "experiments" with your nephew, although I think your experience is outside the scope of the original question. First off, I won't point out the obvious fact that it sounds like your nephew was playing at wrestling while you were playing at "dirty fighting". IMHO, if your nephew had starting playing fast and loose with the rules and starting inserting his own dirty tricks, then you would have been forced to deal with that AND the fact that you probably can't keep up with him on the takedown game. At that point, your mileage would have varied considerably. I don't generally like to engage in the "sport vs street" argument since I'm of the opinion that most people are terminally engrained in the way that they like to train, and nothing that I can say or demonstrate will change people's minds. However, it is an interesting discussion and I'll use your post to air out some of the points from which I approach my personal training. First of all, everything that I do orbits around a "sport base". By sport base, I mean practices that are generally manifested as sports, or activities that can be safely practiced against an uncooperative combatant. These would include boxing, wrestling, kickboxing, sport TKD, Judo, sport BJJ, sport flavor Sambo, WEKAF stickfighting, Kendo, etc. The reasons for taking part in these types of activities are varied and numerous. First of all, they are athletic in nature. Not only will participating in these activities raise one's physical and mental capabilities, but their practice provides a strong incentive to partake in auxiliary conditioning maintenance that improves and enhances the performance of these activities. This is a fancy way of saying that these sports provide positive reinforcement for making healthy lifestyle choices, and contribute toward making a happier and healthier individual. Second, these activities are about managing chaos. Success in life is all about working one's plan while simultaneously dealing with the monkey-wrenches that life likes to throw one's way from time-to-time. In that sense, sport can make a nice "dress rehearsal" that can extend into one's overall life experience. From a conflict standpoint, nothing will prepare me for fighting insane crackheads except...well, fighting insane crackheads. But, if that ever comes into being I'm glad I've got plenty of hours of "flight time" under my belt in terms of dealing with a resistant opponent. If I had to boil it all down to a few words, it would probably be along the following lines...I know I'm less apt to freeze up in the street because things didn't go the way I planned, because my training partners ALWAYS make sure things never go the way I planned in the gym. Now, if one is concerned with surviving on the mean streets of Anytown, USA, then one can't stay forever within the confines of "sport". There are some things that just can't be practiced at full speed and power, or taken to their logical conclusion (lots of "foul tactics" come to mind). At the same time, these "things" will serve one well in a real life-and-death struggle. Where I part opinions with a lot of "street experts" is that these dirty little tricks can be learned in fairly short order. They don't take hundreds of hours of practice and effort like those sport activities. For example, if I had been there to "coach" the nephew I might have taken him to the side and said, "why the hell don't you slap him one across the nose, and THEN do your takedown". That would have changed things quite a bit. Even more so if I had told him to poke to the eyes, or stomp to the shins. So, then we would have had a young, athletically trained stud with some "foul tactics" to spread on top of his sport skills. That, my friends, is a very dangerous animal. In closing, I believe you need both in order to really have the total package. Where I part opinion is that I believe the vast majority of the time should be spent in "sport mode", whereas a lot of people like to spend their entire life pretending to gouge out each others eyeballs. For me, the dirty stuff is the icing on the cake, whereas others make their whole cake out of the dirty stuff. Who knows? That's why I'm a gun owner. 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