Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 19:58:02 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #289 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. ITF Tul reference (Boudreau, Phillip) 2. Re: TKD answer to grappling (Neil Burton) 3. RE: to sprawl or not to sprawl? (Master Mark Seidel) 4. RE: Collegiate Wrestling (Michael Rowe) 5. Wrestling (Burdick, Dakin R) 6. korean form (Kevin Luttrell) 7. RE: korean form (Rick Clark) 8. Still on grappling & takedowns. (Oludipe O. Tolulope) 9. Re: ITF Tul reference (Neil Burton) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:57:38 -0400 From: "Boudreau, Phillip" To: "Martial Arts Mail List \(E-mail\)" Subject: [The_Dojang] ITF Tul reference Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am looking for a reference guide for the ITF style Tul's. Specifically those related to Choong Jang and higher. I have researched over the internet and have found some that are useful up to Hwa Rang, however none to my liking after that. Most I have found were long winded descriptions of the forms. As many will attest to it is not to learn these forms from scratch, moreso to be used as a reference when my I am training by myself. A quick visual reference that will give me that next movement when I can't remember what comes after such and such a move. Any relavant links would be appreciated. Thanks, Phil Boudreau --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:56:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Burton Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] TKD answer to grappling To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net For what it is worth, in my school we are taught some counters to grappling techniques. However, in my opinion these would be of more use in a situation where I was being grappled in a bar or street brawl. If I went to a HKD dojang and did mat work with a student of hapkido who was the same grade in HKD as I am in TKD, I doubt that I would win the bout - just as I wouldn't expect the HKD student to win an ITF style TKD competition. Each student would have their relative strengths, and I would expect the HKD student to be better at grappling, and the TKD student to be a better kicker. It is for the above that I am keen to cross train in HKD to help provide a rounded martial arts training - most of the BB's that I respect teh most have a healthy attitude to cross training in different arts, and are not hide bound to one style or school. --- Eddie Urbistondo wrote: > It all depends on the school you attend. At our > school, our students are > taught many counters to grappling from Traditional > TKD. Black belt factory > schools or schools teaching strictly sport TKD most > likely will not teach > defense for grapplers from traditional TKD. > Master Eddie Urbistondo > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Master Mark Seidel" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] to sprawl or not to sprawl? Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 07:01:33 -0400 Organization: The Midtown Academy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net As a Taekwondo student and teacher for the last 35 years and a student of Hapkido of a few years, I must agree that thinking about kicking someone when they are about to dive at your legs with prior knowledge of that move, is defendable; however I hasten to add even the best Taekwondoist would not be successful if they didn't know it was coming. Consequently they must be trained regularly on "what to do if this happens to you". Now if you're not interested in Martial Arts as a self defense then it doesn't matter if the wrestling part is excluded from your training. Mark Master Mark Seidel Martial Arts /PE Program The Midtown Academy http://www.midtownacademy.org -----Original Message----- From: michael tomlinson [mailto:tomlinson_michael@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 7:53 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] to sprawl or not to sprawl? Again my cohort Craig Stovall hit the nail on the head IMHO.. I was myself a "scholastic" wrestler, actually a freestyle wrestler and a high school coach for quite a few years.. what Craig says is exactly right... after practice, before practice or just hanging out in the off season working out ALL the wrestlers I knew or coached practiced "dirty" wrestling for the street as we called it.. it is amazing as Craig stated how easy it is to turn a head fake single leg takedown into a palm heel strike to nose single leg takedown... in fact in my Hapkido class for the ground and clinching aspect I just use the tweaked up version of freestlye wrestling comibined with Hapkido joint locks and chokes on the ground "after" control is accomplished,, works really well,, this way you learn how to do fast and effective takedowns,, I never even use the word "pin" in my classes and we go hard... as a Hapkido coach... give me a good hard core wrestler in good shape and IMHO I can teach him how to do the other stuff very very quickly,, and also as Craig says,, then you have an awesome fighter... On the TKD note against takedowns.. let me say I really like TKD and the kicks are very good, but, if you don't practice defense against takedowns ALL THE TIME, then there is no way you will be able to use them in real time.... I know a few schools who say they practice takedown defenses,, and once I ask when was the last class you practiced them,, and one of the instructors told me... about two months ago for one long class... I just smiled and changed the subject...you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.... Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and enter to win a trip to NY http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 08:55:24 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Collegiate Wrestling Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Collegiate wrestling is an excellent source of takedowns (sport and combative) There is nothing better in my opinion for the takedown. Judoka not (as a white belt in Judo I was taking Black Belts down without a problem) BJJ? No problem getting the takedown on them either. Mind you I was better than average in wrestling (I wrestled for ISU for a year) But I was not the best (Kevin Jackson and Michael VanArsdale were both ahead of me in the depth chart at 167 lbs. Now mind you to keep the advantage once you are down on the ground requires more than what wrestling can offer. Wrestling is about temporary immobilization (AKA the Pin). There are no submissions, chokes, or striking. So I recommend BJJ and other similar systems to develop the ground work. However wrestling is a very good start on developing groundwork, just need to add the submissions and chokes and you have a well rounded ground fighter. Michael Rowe "All I ask is a chance to prove that money can't make me happy. " mp_rowe@cox.net --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:15:56 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Wrestling Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Let me add my vote of support for wrestling training. It gets you in shape, develops quick movements, and if you are competing, you learn plenty of dirty moves that the ref has trouble spotting. The downside is that it can trash your body, get you used to eating a LOT of calories, and hemorrhoids are no fun either. As for efficacy, I would say that wrestlers are definitely vulnerable to strikes -- a lot of the holds they use don't take into account that someone might fingerpoke you in the eye or ear, or give your testicles a good twist. Wrestlers are very good at getting out of or avoiding holds, and have a lot to teach there. I have a friend who has wrestled about 25 years now, and the only hold I can make work on him is a single arm wing lock. He has also fought off 8 guys in one incident he told me about. 5 guys grabbed him in Ethiopia (I think it was there) and the other three stripped him of watch and sneakers. He broke the hold (one on each limb, plus one on the head) and chased them down the street. He is also VERY impressive with suplex (it took about an hour for him to show me all the ways he could do it!) and I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that. One must also make a distinction between someone playing around with you or experimenting together (which is friendly) and what a wrestler does in real life. A buddy of mine (a much better hapkido guy than I) was messing with this wrestler and annoying him by using joint lock flow. The wrestler got competitive (doesn't like losing), and finally hit him with a double leg takedown that jackknifed the poor hapkido guy in mid-air. I have it on video! :) The hapkido guy's head met his knees in mid-air, about 3 feet off the ground. Unfortunately he was also displaced about 5 feet back, so his butt moved out of the shot or I would have had a winning picture. You could hear his knees pop though. So that move might be effective. :) On the other hand, this wrestler was also smart enough to pick up stuff from hapkido, aikido, and iaido. You can always learn from other arts. Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 07:28:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin Luttrell To: dojang digest Subject: [The_Dojang] korean form Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello, I am doing research on an old Korean for called 'so rim'. I dont know if I spelled it correctly but if anyone can help point me to a video online or any information about its origins I would really appreciate it. Kevin Luttrell TMAF Springfield, Mo Visit The Martial Artist Foundation Official Website at http://www.geocities.com/taekwondoks/ or join The Martial Artist Foundation Yahoo Group for free and keep up to e on Events: ="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themartialartistfoundation/join"> --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] korean form Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:42:45 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Kevin, > From: Kevin Luttrell [mailto:sabum@sbcglobal.net] > I am doing research on an old Korean for called 'so rim'. In Choi Hong Hi book on Tae Kwon Do "So Rim" is mentioned as one of the two sources of where the old forms were derived. While he does not show the Chinese characters by inference it refers to Shaolin, at least that's my reading of the paragraph. > I dont know if I spelled it correctly but if anyone can help point me to a > video online or any information about its origins I would really > appreciate it. Take a look at his book from the 60's. At some point I'll get to the other computer and copy that bit and post it to the list. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org > > Kevin Luttrell > TMAF > Springfield, Mo > > > > Visit The Martial Artist Foundation Official Website at > > http://www.geocities.com/taekwondoks/ > > > > > > or join The Martial Artist Foundation Yahoo Group for free and keep up to > e on Events: > > ="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themartialartistfoundation/join"> > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 08:38:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Oludipe O. Tolulope" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Still on grappling & takedowns. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Only of recent did I get to meet with a Saboenim who knows Traditional TKD (JidoKwan specifically) and only then did I really 'believe' we had some grappling\takedown techinques. It has always been sad when I visit some Dojangs to see Sport TKD day-in day-out. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy sparring within WTF rules, but since the day a friend of mine got really beatup then beatdown out there in the streets when trying to mind his own business ;) I made it a point to preach the gospel according to st. 'LearnOtherArt(s)'. Some leg techniques in fact are outside the scope of average WTF TKD students (don't know much about ITF). An example is the sweep. Imagine someone supprises you from behind tring to bat you on the head with whatever- and that includes a strand of noodle :)) Of course several options can arise but as you turn around catching it with your peripheral vision, would it not be time and strength effective to continue into a sweep? This technique I learnt from my kung-fu brethens. OR If the blow is swinging right to left and you happen to catch it in your right periphery, step into the attacker, grab the wrist letting it sweep on, at the same time you hold as close to the armpit as possible initiating a turning moment about the spot where your leg demarkates with the waist for a takedown/ throw depending on temprament? This I learnt visiting a Judo cathedral. Include these to what we, WTF, ordinarily would do; sidestep away from trouble and/or side/back kick into the turn... . NO ART IS COMPLETE! While you can learn one enough to have options to choose from, it could be that other technique you know little/nothing of that could actually save your life. Learning other Arts dilligently gives you more options when it matters. That's what makes you a true Martial Artist. Qoute GM. Timmerman: "..My intent in seminars is to show folks how, with a little bit of an open mind, one can add tricks to the bag you already have. Instead of asking folks to change their art, I think it is easier to have them just add a few things that may even help them with the art they already have rank in.." Preach on Kwanjangnim, preach on. Question is, do I continue to learn other Arts to combine with my TKD in teaching students or I permit them to learn it from source and when is a student really fit enough to enter another style? Blackbelt? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 19:32:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Burton Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] ITF Tul reference To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Phillip Depends if you want to spend money or not :-) Personally I have the Legacy CD ROM, which as videos of all 24 patterns from Chon Ji to Tong Il. A quick search on Google yielded: http://www.natkd.com/tkd_forms.htm Didn't check the videos as I am at work and have no real player installed here. If you have no joy then mail me - at home I have some videos that I downloaded for free last year - I can zip them up and load to an FTP server for you Taekwon Neil --- "Boudreau, Phillip" wrote: > I am looking for a reference guide for the ITF style > Tul's. Specifically those > related to Choong Jang and higher. I have researched > over the internet and > have found some that are useful up to Hwa Rang, > however none to my liking > after that. Most I have found were long winded > descriptions of the forms. As > many will attest to it is not to learn these forms > from scratch, moreso to be > used as a reference when my I am training by myself. > A quick visual reference > that will give me that next movement when I can't > remember what comes after > such and such a move. Any relavant links would be > appreciated. > > Thanks, > Phil Boudreau > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest