Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:03:02 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #298 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: One-Step Sparring (Jye nigma) 2. Re: One-Step Sparring (Jye nigma) 3. Re: RE: Collegiate Wrestling (Jye nigma) 4. Re: stickfighter's two cents worth on one-step sparring (Jye nigma) 5. Re: One-Step Sparring (luke rose) 6. Re: Hyong.net (C. Bonner) 7. So Rim Hyung Caution? (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 8. Forms and Animal visualizations (Burdick, Dakin R) 9. From another Group...grappling vs wrestling (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 08:20:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] One-Step Sparring To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well to add my two cents, I have to say that in my opinion one steps, two and three steps do have their place in the dojang, because there are newcomers who may have never had a fight in their life and have to start from somewhere. They go to class practice techniques like kicking striking blocking and stances, and although they learn forms, they are still kicking, punching and blocking air. Now some people like to visualize that they're being attacked while doing forms, and some people can't. So a form is simply movements without an understanding of what the movements are and what they are doing. So to me, 1 steps seem more like segments possibly from forms that show the actual usage of the technique in the forms, or what you've been using kicking and punching air. Do I see loop holes in one steps? sure! I've never seen 2 people squared off punching from the hip and/or blocking in TKD stances, but a newbie has to start from somewhere. Believe it or not the one steps will improve reflexes/response time. It's just like any other school situation, the teacher can only show you the material but it is up to only the students to make the material theirs. With that said, you could have a person who has never fought a day in their lives who actually learn from one steps. But in reality, everyone uses drills that make not be too close to the real thing. Jye Stickfighter87@aol.com wrote: One thing I'd like to say about (pre-arranged) sparring or one step. It builds weak attributes and it encourages you to think you can do one of these such movments in a real situation. The one step I used to learn was really un necessary really. I think its mostly something that teachers have just passed on to give them something else for a promotion requirement. What I think One Step sparring should be traded for is BUNKAI of each Kata. This then becomes more detremental and the exploration of what they are learning in Kata/Poomse/Hyung or whatever you call them... Each form has a set of movements that if analyzed correctly they will do the same thing as what ONE STEP is trying to add, except it will begin building on self defense, it will build attributes on how ot react to different angles of attack rather then stand and punch. When working Bunkai you begin exploring the options of grab attacks, multible attacks, attacks on your weak side of your guard, and you will gain a more better understanding of what your Forms are learning you. Outside of that being said, the only way to build a stronger attribute base is to spar in an uncontrolled environment or a NON STATIC type training. With as least amount of rules between the two as possible. Keep it basic and simple yet let it go that step further than normal sparring. No Eyes, No Groin, Light Facial contact, NO broken bones, go for submission, go from stand up to grappling, to submission this will then build attributes that you never knew you had. Otherwise your only selling yourself and your training short by standing there and trading punches to areas that by point sparring will build strengths that in the street only inbed bad habits. JUST MY .02 worth. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 08:26:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] One-Step Sparring To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have to agree. My 1 step experience was changed when I partnered with a man from israel. We had been punching off to the side a little. He told me, punch directly at me. I said ok. He explained to me that if I punched off to the side, he had no reason to really block, but if I punched at his nose and he blocked poorly he'd get hit in the nose, so it was done as he said and that's how I began to train. The bruises increased and the realism got better. Ray Terry wrote: The biggest problem I have seen with one-step and three-step sparring is that the attackers punches or kicks are frequently thrown without 'intention'. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 08:42:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Collegiate Wrestling To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You know what? I always see alot of people say well this is good for sport but not for real life. I think we are looking at things from one side when we do that. You can take something safe and for sport and turn it into a deadly thing. Hopefully you all are just good hearted people who wouldn't want to do that. But seriously, anything can be made to kill. Take wrestling, you can put someone in a hold and maybe slam them on the ground....now I'm not talking about WWE wrestling. you could do something like reach in pull the guys feet from under them and cause them to hit their head killing them. I say this because I was knew a state champ wrestler in high school and he was so nasty that he could use his skill to maim or kill. Trust me a few guys found that out....it was because he used his skill, but it was powered by the wickness that is within man. So I believe a collegiate wrestler could whoop some serious a$$ in a real fight even without knowing things that are found in martial arts. Just like boxing. Skilled boxers can kill someone *we've seen it a few times in actual events, and that was with gloves...and they don't really train to kill....*tyson is exempt*, but they can kill someone with what they know plus their skill. As long as man is capable of making anything evil guess what.....sports skills is not exempt. Jye Michael Rowe wrote: Collegiate wrestling is an excellent source of takedowns (sport and combative) There is nothing better in my opinion for the takedown. Judoka not (as a white belt in Judo I was taking Black Belts down without a problem) BJJ? No problem getting the takedown on them either. Mind you I was better than average in wrestling (I wrestled for ISU for a year) But I was not the best (Kevin Jackson and Michael VanArsdale were both ahead of me in the depth chart at 167 lbs. Now mind you to keep the advantage once you are down on the ground requires more than what wrestling can offer. Wrestling is about temporary immobilization (AKA the Pin). There are no submissions, chokes, or striking. So I recommend BJJ and other similar systems to develop the ground work. However wrestling is a very good start on developing groundwork, just need to add the submissions and chokes and you have a well rounded ground fighter. Michael Rowe "All I ask is a chance to prove that money can't make me happy. " mp_rowe@cox.net _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:25:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] stickfighter's two cents worth on one-step sparring To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Now I'm a supporter of what I call realistic sparring which incorporates things such as elbows, knees, rolls, sweeps, etc. You don't do it to hurt the other and it should only be done by seasoned students. and with the most careful control. Jye Eddie Urbistondo wrote: BTW, sparring full on with just about anything goes leads to many injuries when you are trying to train and learn. That's why we drill techniques to become second nature. Just my two cents worth. Master Urbistondo __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 10:26:58 -0700 (PDT) From: luke rose To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: One-Step Sparring Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray Terry wrote: "The biggest problem I have seen with one-step and three-step sparring is that the attackers punches or kicks are frequently thrown without 'intention'." Couldn't agree more. One of the best tools in life for me is to ask myself why I'm doing what I'm doing. To many times I see others or catch myself getting in a pattern of which blinds them/me to all other things. Another phrase I like to use is which usually goes along with negative patterns is your " comfort zone", which I'm sure a lot you DD people have heard of. While training I believe most of the time spent should be outside of your comfort zone. One thing I see most of my students have a real problem with is getting in close. With one-steps the attacker (with little training) will usually end with their punch about a foot away from their partner. So I know (and probably a lot of other serious martial artists) what Ray is saying. So get down and dirty and in there face is what I say. Don't let them move out of the way but instead make them move. Find things that motivate the head strong and reassure the timid that they are still in a safe environment. "You may train for a long, long time, but if you merely move your hands and feet and jump up and down like a puppet, learning karate is not very different from learning to dance. You will never have reached the heart of the matter; you will have failed to grasp the quintessence of karate-do." -by Gichin Funakoshi In my beliefs with correct application any event can be beneficial, even watching the wind blow through the trees on a cool summer day. Luke --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "C. Bonner" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:23:12 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Hyong.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net            These are the way the the I.T.F. tuls were originally done, in the 60's anyway. Interesting, when you compare them to the modern I.T.F. tuls. I have some I.T.F. tape's from that period, and they are done just like the one's on Hyong.net.     Clint ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN 9 Dial-up Internet Access fights spam and pop-ups – now 3 months FREE! --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:31:34 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] So Rim Hyung Caution? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi George, Sorry if I was not clear enough. The caution is only for someone looking for "the" So Rim Jang Kwan Hyung" that was in Hwang Kee's cirriculum. Caution because there are a lot of Shaolin Long Fist Forms out there, but So Rim Jang Kwan was 1 specific form, and I know there are some that say they have So Rim Jang Kwan, and they have "a" long fist form, but not Hwang Kee's long fist form. Incidentally, are your percentages from Hwang Kee or someone else? Tang Soo!!! Danny <<<<<<<<>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:57:31 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Forms and Animal visualizations Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net George Peters wrote: >TSD is 40% from China (30% Shaolin Long Fist and Tai Chi, 10%Southern Hung Gar). Isn't TSD 100% from China, since that other 60% comes from Karate-do (way of the Tang hand), an Okinawan art based on Chinese White Crane quanfa (boxing)? Sid Rubinfeld wrote: >Kimose (horseback) stances were predicated on attacks while horseback. I don't think Kima (ja)se (Horse stance) forms were based on attacks while on horseback. They derive from Neihanchi forms after all, which teach either grappling or striking with the arms AND the legs. I don't think those sweeps and such would work from horseback. I have a feeling that horse stance was really more about visualization ("imagine you are on a big fat horse") than actually about horseback techniques. If it was the latter, there should be some move where you lean way back, twist at the waist, and strike backwards. Right? After all, snake lock is not used on snakes and chickenbeak fist is not used to kill chickens. If they were, the bear fist guys would be a hard act to follow! Brian Woodard responded to someone who said: <> and wrote: In my old dojang we had a "black belts only" drill that was similar to the above. I was a lucky brown belt who got to practice this. The attacking person would throw full power punches to the solarplexes sp? and head. (the punches would have full extension but would be slightly short of contact since no protective gear was worn) The defensive person would then block the punch with full power as the drill continues the speed of the punches is increased. This drill would leave you with some pretty good lumps on the blocking forearms. (great conditioning but you will want to wear long sleeves to work!) My reply: This is what I call "push hands" for karate or hapkido folks. We didn't work on "blocking" but rather "blending," that being the idea of rolling with the blow and responding in kind. First we do this back and forth in a line (taking turns being the attacker) and then work legs in, and then work in the round. Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:57:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] From another Group...grappling vs wrestling Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A wrestler certainly has a huge advantage over anyone with no training, that's for sure. That's usually the result I see in a fight where a wrestler is involved. But the truth is that the most hard-core wrestlers out there today are jujitsu guys like Gracie. Where did Gracie JJ come from? Japan. And when people ask me what kind of art I study, I tell them jujitsu, because our art is basically a jujitsu art. In fact, wrestling skills are so much a part of my dojo that we have a 2nd degree BJJ guy who teaches here on wednesday nights and we are encouraged to cross-train in BJJ by our sensei, who considers himself a "grappling type fighter specialist" primarily. So much so that we even have a combined payment plan, it doesn't get better than that. I myself am one of the best stand-up grapplers in the dojo, and the way I see it is that the primary goal of much of our taijutsu techniques is to take your opponent down, retain your own footing, and subdue them from that position. It's preferable to retain your feet. However it takes good grappling skills to do so. I love Nagato's quote I heard today, "Kill him, kill him three times," because once might not work, and twice may not be enough. With that in mind, we routinely train against the typical and standard take-down tactics of your ground-fighting specialist, who's primary move is gonna be to wrap up your legs and take you down, or try to drop into the guard position (more BJJ). Well, there are quite effective defenses against it. So a lot of ppl on the street are expecting punching matches when they conflict, and a wrestler comes out of left field and they can't deal with it, I agree with you on that. But a martial artist - one who spends their time actively studying the art of fighting is likely to have studied a few defenses against a pure wrestler. Again, we'll cheat. A wrestler on the ground is in serious trouble when a knife comes out for instance, he loves being reeeeeal close to his opponent. Same thing if you got a buddy, or pretty much any other weapon. Heck, the keys I carry in my pocket would be enough most of the time. The other thing is to cheat with dirty tricks that are easy to pull off at the close range of groundfighting. He drops you into gracie guard? Fine, clap his ears, fishook his lips, rip his ears, fingernail his gums, cover his mouth(!), thumbs to the eyes, etc - stuff they don't allow even on UFC. Even tapping can get them off you! That's really the fun thing about sport arts, they are used to rules. So I guess I agree with your statement, with some training a martial artist can quickly develop effective strategies against a wrestling specialist. One of my favorite UFC fights is of a wrestler taking on this black karate dude. Wrestler goes to take his legs, dude shoots out one leg and ends up on the ground BEHIND the wrestler on his back, and goes to town on his head with a free knee and elbow and knocks him out in no time flat. Owned. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. 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