Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 06:38:04 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #299 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. TSD/Shaolin Root (FRANK CLAY) 2. Master West's Seminar (Bert Edens) 3. Re: Master West's Seminar (jeffrey kiral) 4. Re: Horse Stance (Jon Payne) 5. Re: Forms and Animal visualizations (Bernard Redfield) 6. RE: Re: Horse Stance (Rick Clark) 7. Re: Re: Horse Stance (jeffrey kiral) 8. Danny Dunn on Shaolin forms (Dennis McHenry) 9. RE: Re: Horse Stance (Rick Clark) 10. Danny Dunn on percentages... (George Peters) 11. Dakin Burdick on TSD... (George Peters) 12. Re: Unified TKD WTF & ITF (Neil Burton) 13. TKD on TV (David Walsh) 14. Dakin's chicken beak observations (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "FRANK CLAY" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:13:30 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] TSD/Shaolin Root Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sir, Tang Soo Do does not seem to exhibit much in common with the systems you cited save for perhaps Dam Doi, which is sometimes used in Bei Shaolin. TSD is more of a white crane derivative, as supposedly WC is the root of Okinawan Karate, which is the core root to the other systems from whcih TSD evolved. Also, you need to be more specific as to the ryu pa of TSD. Frank --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:28:27 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Bert Edens Subject: [The_Dojang] Master West's Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings, all... We're hoping to get a group of our own "mutants" to go to the seminar in Jackson in August... I know the seminar is at the Holiday Inn North... But I have a question that's very critical to the wife: Which motels / hotels in the area have an indoor pool? :) I've tried searching on the web, but I keep finding conflicting information about various motels/hotels. Before I dropped a dime to call them, I thought I'd ask among those more familiar... :) Hey... Gotta know these things! :) Now I just gotta convince her to get on the carpet with us during the seminar :) Thanks for your time! <> - Bert --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "jeffrey kiral" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Master West's Seminar Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 19:03:24 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net try hotwire.com....they seem to have the best deals...you dont know what hotel it is until you make a purchase, but you can see all that it has to offer... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bert Edens" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 3:28 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Master West's Seminar > Greetings, all... > We're hoping to get a group of our own "mutants" to go to the seminar in > Jackson in August... I know the seminar is at the Holiday Inn North... But > I have a question that's very critical to the wife: Which motels / hotels > in the area have an indoor pool? :) I've tried searching on the web, but I > keep finding conflicting information about various motels/hotels. Before I > dropped a dime to call them, I thought I'd ask among those more familiar... :) > Hey... Gotta know these things! :) > Now I just gotta convince her to get on the carpet with us during the > seminar :) > Thanks for your time! > > <> > > - Bert > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Jon Payne" To: Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:36:26 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Horse Stance Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>I don't think Kima (ja)se (Horse stance) forms were based on attacks while on horseback.>> I believe the Horse Stance was designed to develop leg strength. Jon --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:40:30 -0400 From: Bernard Redfield To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Forms and Animal visualizations Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net << Isn't TSD 100% from China, since that other 60% comes from Karate-do (way of the Tang hand), an Okinawan art based on Chinese White Crane quanfa (boxing)?>> Just for fun, isn't Chinese Gungfu really the fighting arts of the Africans or black chinese? http://www.geocities.com/olmec982000/blshang2.htm So?? bernard --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Horse Stance Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 19:54:54 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Jon, > From: Jon Payne [mailto:payne1224@gt.rr.com] > >>I don't think Kima (ja)se (Horse stance) forms were based on attacks > while > on horseback.>> > > I believe the Horse Stance was designed to develop leg strength. > > Jon I'll try to be brief :-) "If" forms were a way to practice techniques that an individual would use in real self-defense, there might be an alternative explanation for stances rather than build leg strength. Consider in the past if you wanted to get somewhere you had to walk, and perhaps a long distance. Yes people had carts and some had horses but I would suspect the vast majority of transportation way back when was by foot. I suspect they had better leg strength than we have. Plus, when you sit on the floor all the time (no chairs) and your toilet required a squat rather than the porcelain fixtures we now have in the west - flexibility would have to be much better. That puts us back to a position of asking why stances? Ok, my thoughts are really very simple. A stance will provide a person with a base from which to execute a technique in the most efficient manner. I think all would agree that you must be in a balanced position to deliver an effective technique. If you attempt to deliver any technique in an unbalanced position it will be weak and ineffective. If you were to pick up a barbell what position would your feet be placed? Horse stance? If you were to push a car what position would your feet be placed? Front stance? If you were to pull on a rope what position would your feet be placed in? Back stance? Ok, it's a simple way to put it but I truly believe stances have a function over and above just making your legs stronger or improving flexibility. Rick Clark "Illegitimis non carborundum." ("Don't let the bastards grind you down.") - Gen. Joseph Stilwell www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "jeffrey kiral" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Horse Stance Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:43:51 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net that was a very logical and concise explanation....the imagery was excellent...unfortunately, we will probably never know the truth behind the development of the stance, or why they are so similar amongst all martial arts. ----- Original Message ----- > That puts us back to a position of asking why stances? Ok, my thoughts are > really very simple. A stance will provide a person with a base from which > to execute a technique in the most efficient manner. I think all would > agree that you must be in a balanced position to deliver an effective > technique. If you attempt to deliver any technique in an unbalanced > position it will be weak and ineffective. > > If you were to pick up a barbell what position would your feet be placed? > Horse stance? > If you were to push a car what position would your feet be placed? > Front stance? > If you were to pull on a rope what position would your feet be placed in? > Back stance? > > Ok, it's a simple way to put it but I truly believe stances have a function > over and above just making your legs stronger or improving flexibility. > > > > > Rick Clark > > "Illegitimis non carborundum." ("Don't let the bastards grind you down.") - > Gen. Joseph Stilwell > > www.ao-denkou-kai.org > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Dennis McHenry" Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 02:44:23 GMT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Danny Dunn on Shaolin forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: "George Peters" " since TSD is 40% from China (30% Shaolin Long Fist and Tai Chi, 10%Southern Hung Gar)." Which partis from China? Which techniques or forms are you talking about? Are there specific techniques from Shaolin Long Fist, Tai Chi, or Southern Hung Gar? Thanks ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Horse Stance Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:17:06 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Jeffrey, > From: jeffrey kiral [mailto:JAKSKRU@peoplepc.com] > that was a very logical and concise explanation....the imagery was > excellent... Thanks I have used this explanation before :-) > unfortunately, we will probably never know the truth behind > the development of the stance, This is a bit is a bit (for lack of a better word) odd to me. Will we know the thoughts of the first person to use a "stance" in a martial arts context? No, but there are things that are self evidently true - at least the way I see it. Believe me this is a hard concept for me to put down in words - but the thing that keeps popping in my mind is "form follows function". A cup has to have a certain basic design to function as a cup. The name can be different like a coffee cup, a tea cup, a beaker, etc but the basic construct requires that a cup have common characteristics that make it a cup. Ok when you perform techniques at a high level there will be inherent positions of the feet to maximize the effectiveness of the technique. I just don't see any way to get away from that. The physical requirement of various techniques will require you place your feet in certain positions to make the technique work to the greatest effect. > or why they are so similar amongst all martial arts. Well at a very basic level a lot of the arts copy from each other, evidence the history of Tae Kwon Do and the relationship to Japanese / Okinawan Karate. Yet I think it gets back to the idea that "form follows function". If something works well for one person I would expect it should work equally as well for another person. Or even the fact that due to physical limitations of the body there is a limited amount of ways certain things can be done. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 00:54:14 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Danny Dunn on percentages... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, These percentages were in the material we were given to study getting ready to test for Cho dan.This is something I have never inquired about as GM C.S. Kim is quite adamant about teaching as one is taught, therfor these percentages should have come down from Hwang Kee. Since everything has always checked out before and GM is always very frank and honest, I have never had a reason to question this. Hope this helps. Respectfully, George Tang Soo! _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 01:08:11 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Dakin Burdick on TSD... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir: I secretly concur, but lack the courage to say this. I will however, offer you succor and shelter from the relentless pursuit of the "purists" who shall undoubtedly claim with nationalistic fervor that THEIR country of choice is the cradle of martial arts,etc. (ha, ha) All joking aside though, I do agree. Respectfully, George Tang Soo! _________________________________________________________________ >From ‘will you?’ to ‘I do,’ MSN Life Events is your resource for Getting Married. http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=married --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:43:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Burton Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Unified TKD WTF & ITF To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye Currently an ITF student can't (to my knowledge anyway) compete in the Olympics. A prerequisite is a kukkiwon blackbelt. That is a pretty big incentive to getting kukkiwon certs. I am not making an argument for ITF students wanting to change - I personally like the current ITF competions, which, as you rightly point out have patterns and full contact. However, ITF students are excluded from a large number of national and international competitions that are wtf exclusive. I hope that my information and assumptions are correct. If they aren't then please accept my apologies in advance. I based my comments on http://www.olympic.org/uk/sports/programme/index_uk.asp?SportCode=TK Best Regards Neil --- Jye nigma wrote: > What is the benefit of ITF BB getting Kukkiwon > certs? I thought ITF students competited in more > tournaments like points AND full contact? Also why > leave out forms? > > Jye > > > Neil Burton wrote: > Before I add my tuppence worth please let me say > that > I am a relative newcomer to TKD (3rd Gup ITF).... > > Pros: > > ITF BBs get Kukkiwon certs > ITF students compete in olympics > ITF students have a larger base for competitions > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "David Walsh" To: Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:47:16 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD on TV Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Hi All, > > For those of you who missed it the first time, check out Eurosport tonight > (Thursday) at 22.00 CET, 23.00 BST, for a repeat of the European TKD > Championships from Lillehammer shot and produced by us at TKDDVD.com. Get > a preview of what will be available on the Official DVD from the > Championships, which will be available in 2 weeks. Check out > www.tkddvd.com for more details. > For All Olympic Coaches: You can get now buy any match from the * World Olympic Qualification Tournament in Paris * European Olympic Qualification Tournament in Azerbaijan * European Championships in Lillehammer on DVD to study players before you go to Athens. Get the upper hand on your competition before your players even step on the mat - over 800 matches to choose from. We are the Official Supplier of the DVD for these Championships. Contact me at davew@tkddvd.com for details and pricing. > Yours in Taekwondo, > > David Walsh > TKD DVD www.tkddvd.com [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:42:42 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Dakin's chicken beak observations Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dakin, Thanks for the post. That cracked me up! Practicing chicken beak for killing chickens, ox jaw for oxs and bear paw for bears! That's great! Danny Dunn <<<>>>> --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest