Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 15:28:03 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #373 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1700 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Tang Soo Do forms and History (Ray Terry) 2. Re: you say tomato, I say tomoto (Neil Burton) 3. Master Terry on TSD forms: (George Peters) 4. TSD CDK (Frank Clay) 5. Korean Pronunciation... (Bert Edens) 6. Soo Bahk Do Kwan Jang (Charles Richards) 7. RE: TSD History and Forms (Jared Circle) 8. Don vs Dahn (Charles Richards) 9. RE Dan, Don and Tang Soo Do (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 10. Head Gear (Jim) 11. Kicho (Ray Terry) 12. two hurricanes in three weeks really SUCK (michael tomlinson) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Tang Soo Do forms and History To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:02:31 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > As for the Tang Soo Do Name you are correct that others taught under the name > Tang Soo Do, however they did not teach the same techniques known to us as > Tang Soo Do. The Words Tang Soo Do are a generic term like Karate. Not a generic term -like- Karate... Tang Soo Do and Karate-do are the -same- ideograms, the same term/words. The styles were pretty much the same since Hwang Kee studied TSD briefly under Lee Won-kuk before beginning to teach TSD in his MDK. I respect Hwang Kee greatly, but we should not give him more credit than he deserves. He was in favor of government backing of a single national art, later named Taekwondo, but he wanted to be in charge. Like Gen. Choi he wanted to be the biggest fish in the big pond. When that didn't work out he had to settle for being the biggest fish in a little pond... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:42:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Burton Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] you say tomato, I say tomoto To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Not sure about korean, but in Japanese this would be Dan. The reason being that Romaji (Romanised Hiragana, katakana and Kanji) follows a standard a, e, i, o , u form (except for the sound n). So the "D" sounds are: Da, Di, Du, De, Do So Dan, is actually the the two hiragana characters: Da & n hence Dan. The A is pronounced as in Apple or Axe, not as in Are. Best Regards one and All Neil Burton --- Kevin Luttrell wrote: > Hello, > > I usually just hang out and learn as much from the > list as you can when > you do that but ocassionally I throw my 3 cents in > and well here it is > today! > > I have heard both pronunciations from various styles > of martial artist > and with varying degrees of experience. I dont think > that it really > makes any difference as to the legitamacy of the > martial artist or his > experience. I have heard both pronunciations from > many different > nationalities also. It doesnt really suprise me that > 2 people might pronounce > the same word differetly. The old "you say tomato, I > say tomoto" thing. > I would technically say that it is Dahn since the > Korean and japanese > languages charactors are pronounced that way but I > dont think it matters > that much. It just really depends on who is the > pronunciator. > > On another note, I am wondering what other TKD > practitioners think > about olympic rules compared to sport karate rules? > which do you prefer or > maybe there are some out there like me who prefer > both? > How many TKD people out there compete in open > tournaments compared to > TKD tournaments? > > thanks, > > > > > Visit The Martial Artist Foundation Official Website > at > > http://www.sporttkd.com > > > > > > or join The Martial Artist Foundation Yahoo Group > for free and keep up to e on Events: > > ="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themartialartistfoundation/join"> > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1700 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 02:02:22 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Terry on TSD forms: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir: I have heard that the name "Tang Soo Do" could be considered to be a generic term. Have you heard this also and is there a sound basis for this statement from some practictioners? Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 06:22:05 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] TSD CDK Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net JC, I respectfully submit, that TSD CDK while having changed its name to TKD DOES still exist. Grandmaster Son still teaches the TSD CDK, albeit under the name TKD, in NYC. It through me because some of the names they use are different from some of the names used by Master Hwang. In my mind, these days TSD and TKD are merely two sides of the same coin. Unfortunately one is is becoming known as a martial sport, but that is also dependent on technique. I have studied both for some time and while there are differences, they are really minute in the grand scheme of things. Frank --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 07:24:54 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Bert Edens Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean Pronunciation... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net At 05:01 9/5/04, you wrote: >I see and hear many of these mispronunciations in the USA. One such is >Do-Jang. It too >should be pronounced with a short "A" sound, like Do-Jong. Another is "Tang" >like in the name Tang Soo Do. >It is pronounced Tong Soo Do and has no long "A" sound. Greetings, all... As I have learned Korean, I have worked on correcting the pronunciation of the terms at our school... Everyone seems to be accepting of it, although it can be confusing sometimes... :) The worst pronunciation, which practitioners of the Chang Hon / ITF patterns can appreciate, is the pronunciation of the second pattern learned. I once heard it pronounced "Dan Gun" like some guy named Daniel has a firearm. :) Of course, it should be pronounced "Dahn Goon", more or less. <> - Bert Edens, 2nd Dan Recommended Springdale, Arkansas --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 08:20:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Soo Bahk Do Kwan Jang Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read "Well, actually Hwang Kee is/was not the founder of Tang Soo Do. He was the founder of Hwa Soo Do and of the Moo Duk Kwan, but it appears that Lee Won-kuk was the first to teach Tang Soo Do and use the name Tang Soo Do in Korea. See Hwang Kee's little blue 50th anniversary book for the details. Ray Terry" MC Reply, I knew Master Terry would catch that. I would add that if you have a promotion from Hwang Ki within the last few years of his life, it would be a promotion in Soo Bahk Do, not Tang Soo Do. For the history buffs, I believe Hwang HC would have studied under his father and folks like Kim, Jae Jhoon, so I'd say Hwang, HC is the only Soo Bahk Do Grandmaster and Kim, Jae Jhoon is the most senior, active Tang Soo Do Master (add the grand if you like). Back to planning our September 26th seminar Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Jared Circle" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 11:52:20 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: TSD History and Forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you for placing a clarifying post on this subject. When I made my initial post, I was merely reciting information I had recieved from my former Kyo Sah back in my TSD days. I am happy to have accurate information regarding the history of what I believe to be one of the best of the Korean Martial Art forms. However, I am still curious as to the origin of the other forms (Pyung Ahn, Ba Sai, and Nai Han Ji for example) and how they were implemented into the curriculum. Were they derived from a style that Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim had instruciton in? The forms that he developed, such as the Basic forms 1-5 (Kee Cho), have fairly evident applications. I have never received training in the 7 Stars forms (Chil Sang) so I can not attest to their efficacy. Since it was an inquiry into the applications of these forms that began this thread (specifically whether the "original" Masters knew the "original" applications) I am curious to hear some opinions geared to answer this question as well. There is obviously a good collection of individuals possessing knowledge of TSD on this Digest, and I would like to hear them out on this. Respectfully Jared Circle --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 08:58:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Don vs Dahn Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I was going to stay out of this, but I was taught "Dahn" and "Sahm" (3rd). In parts of the Southeast, I hear the Americanized (southern) Sam Dan. I thought it was funny, but reading Webster's guide to pronuciation, they even explain regional dialect for vowel sounds....possible that different provinces in Korea have slightly regionalized ennunciations.... In north Georgia, I tell people that I am a 4th Degree black belt or master instructor, or that I'm the owner and teach 75% of the classes. I never tell a prospect that Gumby is Jokyo Nim, rather my class instructor in training. We use Jokyo and Sabum Nim in class. The parents call me Master Richards in front of thier children and Charles on the phone...The students use Jokyo in class with Russell, and Russell or Gumby out of uniform... Personally in the generic US I like degree, instructor and master instructor. Most Americans can figure out what that means, but 9th Dahn Grandmaster usually illicits a blank doe in the headlights stare :-) Be Well, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 11:55:48 -0500 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE Dan, Don and Tang Soo Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Seems Dan Dahn Don question just keeps hanging on. Although my Kwan Jang Nim pronounces it more like "Dohn" , the differences in Romanization are numerous. I use the "dohn" pronounciation most all the time now, but it wasn't always so and I know a lot of senior martial artists including my first instructor who pronounced it "Dan", just like my name. And my "Dohn", like most other Korean terminology doesn't sound like it does when pronounced by a native Korean speaker. So I would make no evaluation simply on how someone pronounced this word. As for Tang Soo Do, I would have to agree with Ray. Tang Soo Do has generally come to be accepted as linked to Moo Duk Kwan, but it is a common term. My impression is that this is the reason that Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Ki started toward using the name Soo Bahk Do in the 80's. And one has to be very careful to be clear on the exact relationship of the Chil Sung and Yuk Rho to the Moo Yea Dobo Tong Ji. You seem to be making the case that those senior Moo Duk Kwan members who have left and still teach are somehow less qualified than when they were Moo Duk Kwan members. I think you will have a hard time defending that. If your point is that the Chil Sung and Yuk Rho are the center of current Soo Bahk Do, and that it has evolved from the former system, then I think that is defensible. Danny Dunn --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 12:21:51 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Jim Subject: [The_Dojang] Head Gear Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. McDonaldsmith was looking for head gear. Macho put out a light weight head gear called the M2000 a few years back. This headgear has a soft foam outer layer, a dense center layer & a soft inner layer. Very lighweight, with a removable ventilated top. They priced themselves out of the market with it though by charging $70. We bought them out of that item and sell them for $10. Next best is their Warrior Headgear. http://www.ko-online.com/h.html Jim --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 15:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Kicho Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > The forms that he developed, such as the Basic forms 1-5 (Kee Cho), have > fairly evident applications. Any current or former Shotokan people here? I was thinking that TSD MDK's Kicho forms were pretty much a knock off of Karate's basic movement forms, the Taikyoku kata. I know that Hwang Kee claimed to have created them in 1947, but.?. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 22:45:16 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] two hurricanes in three weeks really SUCK Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm back online again, only lost my power for 4 days this hurricane,, what a picnic,, Frances felt like I was a small spoon getting washed in a very big dishwasher.. over 24 hours of intense storm... glad it's over,, I tell you though, going through those two hurricanes really puts what is important in your life in the proper perspective... Master Rick Nabors... thank you for your help and assistance,, it was much appreciated... I noticed something very interesting in the last two hurricanes... the people who offered help and assistance to me and my family just happened to be all my brothers in Hapkido training...what a tight bound group we are... and I won't forget it... Master West thank you for your offer for lodging and support,, I won't forget the offer to help and if you EVER need anything just give me a yell.... Hapki!! I got power again!! Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. 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