Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 16:25:03 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #375 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Today's Topics: 1. history (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 2. Sport/art (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 3. Dan Bon (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 4. TSD Forms (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 5. Tang Soo Do (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 6. Master Terry on TSD (George Peters) 7. Chil Sang forms? (Lasich, Mark D.) 8. Re: history (Ray Terry) 9. two hurricanes in three weeks SUCK (michael tomlinson) 10. (no subject) (Randy Mertes) 11. Tang Soo Do (Dennis McHenry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 23:18:22 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] history Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net We agree that the word Tang Soo Do and karate are alike, my point is once a particular set of physical techniques became known as Tang Soo Do it was no longer generic. Someone may say to you I take Karate and you may reply what style or system. When someone says I take Tang Soo Do it is recognized as a particular style or system so they not the same now as they were in 1945. What proof can you offer that Kwan Jang Nim trained under Lee Won-kuk prior to teaching Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. I sat with Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee as Master HC Hwang (now Kwan Jang Nim) translated to a Ko Dan Ja group many years ago. He aid his only formal instruction was Master Yang in China during the Japanese occupation. He never mentioned Lee Won-kuk. As for the government backing of a single national sport (Tae Kwon Do) Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee did not want the Moo Duk Kwan to be represented as sport. This is why he registered it with the government as a martial art. It had nothing to do with being the big fish. It did have to do with turning over the largest school in Korea at the time (Moo Duk Kwan) to someone else after working his whole life to create it. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 23:40:41 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sport/art Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Frank I do not know the history of Grandmaster Son. I can only speculate that TSD CDK was a name used during the 1940's when Tang Soo Do was a generic term (Karate). After the Tae Kwon Do movement of the late 1950's and early 1960's. At that time all instructors were required to teach under the name TKD. Except Kwan Jang Hwang Kee who fought all the way to the supreme court to stay independent. While in Korea attending the 50th anniversary of the Moo Duk Kwan. I saw the original documents showing Tae Kwon Do registered with the Korean government as the national (Sport) and the original document showing the Korean Soo Bahk Do (Tang Soo Do) Moo Duk Kwan Federation Inc. registered as a Martial Art. The words Tang Soo Do are on the document and it list Hwang Kee as the founder and president. I appreciate your respectful reply, I would like you to know I mean no disrespect to anyone here. I am only interested in the facts. JC --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 23:59:15 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Dan Bon Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You are both correct although the name Tang Soo Do is trademarked by the US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation (See www.soobahkdo.com) it does not use the name much anymore. This has been an attempt to separate the Moo Duk Kwan from those teaching Tang Soo Do under another organizational name. As for Master Kim Jae Jhoon what rank was he promoted to in Tang Soo Do and by whom. Granted his Dan Bon is low and I respect his seniority however Hwang HC Kwan Jang Nim was the only person to be awarded 9th Dan by Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee. JC --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 00:21:59 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] TSD Forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jared The best literature on the these hyungs as they relate to Tang Soo Do is the first vol. text book copywrite 1976 by Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee along with the four instructional guides copywrite in 1993. The Pyung Ahn hyungs were created by Mr. Idos in approx. 1870. Passai's creator is unknown but the date of origin is the mid 1500's Nai Han Ji hyungs are believed to have developed approx. 900 years ago and although the creator is not recorded the forms originate from the Kang Yu Ryu. For this reason it is reasonable to asume that its founder Jang Song Kye was the creator. These hyungs were studied by Kwan Jang Nim during the Japanese occupation while he was living in China. The Chil Sang Hyungs were created by Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee in 1952. They were only taught by the moo Duk Kwan. Now you can find some instructors teaching them that were former Moo Duk Kwan members. You can by the books I listed above from the Soobahkdo web site JC --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 01:00:40 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Tang Soo Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Danny During the last vision tour by HC Hwang Kwan Jang Nim where he traveled to 250 Moo Duk Kwan schools in the US. He came through our region and I attended two of his week-end long clinics. He sat everyone down and covered the history of Moo Duk Kwan and his vision for the direction it will travel in the future. He did mention the migration to the name Soo Bahk Do not just to separate outside Tang Soo Do organizations from the Moo Duk Kwan but because Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim wanted to connect the Moo Duk Kwan with Korean history and the name found in the Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji. The Yuk Ro hyungs were translated from the Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji but the Chil Sang Hyungs were created by Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim. As for instruction of Tang Soo Do. I believe that most of those Moo Duk Kwan members that have left the Moo Duk Kwan and are teaching Tang Soo Do are great instructors with great talant and ability. I personally know many of them. The problem I have is this. Some leave as a 5th Dan for example. they create an organization and give it a name. They claim the title Grandmaster, founder, and president. I believe they are undeserving of the titles and are misrepresenting themselves and the art. It has nothing to do with their ability as an instructor. The Moo Duk Kwan is now taking legal action against those that use trademarked or registered names and logos such as the Moo Duk Kwan flag. Look at it this way. If I worked for Walmart for 20 years, then I decided to leave and open my own store. I left the Walmart and opened my own store called it Walmart and I sold items the Original Walmart didn't plus I had different policies what would happen to me. I see this as basically the same thing. Respectfully; JC --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 03:39:08 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Terry on TSD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, Thank you for all your knowledge and insight with out the politcal frills that seem to slant history when told by many orgs either to make themselves appear more legit or present themselves in a better light. You also verify much that I have been told by the senior masters in our org who were first generation students of GM Hwang Kee. I also have seen forms that are the same as the Kicho Hyungs and ass-u-med that they were "borrowed" by TSD just as many others. Even many higher forms come from elsewhere, it would seem.( Jinteh, Lohi, etc.) I have been taught that this expresses the many influences other cultures have had on the art. I remember a master telling me a long time ago that" even if another MA HAS some of the same hyung, what matters is how we DO them, therein lies the difference". Well, I'm going to retreat to safe quarters now, as this appears to be a thread that will generate quite a bit of controversy among some members. Thank you again, Sir, for your kindness and patience in telling things the way they are. Respectfully, George Tang Soo! _________________________________________________________________ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Lasich, Mark D." To: "Dojang (E-mail)" Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 07:58:20 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Chil Sang forms? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net With the thread on Hwang Kee, Tang Soo Do, forms, etc. there was mention of the Chil Sang (7 Stars) forms. I was wondering if someone could share more information about these forms? The only thing I remember from my US TSD MDK days was that Chil Sang #2 is/was taught as #1 for some reason, and #1 was taught as #2. I also remember the combination of slow/fast and gentle/hard moves...... I would be interested in hearing information on the meaning (7 Stars), application, history, etc. Many thanks. In the spirit, Mark --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] history To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 06:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > We agree that the word Tang Soo Do and karate are alike, my point is once a > particular set of physical techniques became known as Tang Soo Do it was no > longer generic. Someone may say to you I take Karate and you may reply what > style or system. When someone says I take Tang Soo Do it is recognized as a > particular style or system so they not the same now as they were in 1945. Actually Karate is a generic term to the vast unwashed masses and even some of the washed ones... :) > What proof can you offer that Kwan Jang Nim trained under Lee Won-kuk prior to > teaching Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. I sat with Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee as > Master HC Hwang (now Kwan Jang Nim) translated to a Ko Dan Ja group many years > ago. He aid his only formal instruction was Master Yang in China during the > Japanese occupation. He never mentioned Lee Won-kuk. Not surprising. He didn't get very far in Lee's CDK learning TSD before reopening the MDK and teaching TSD instead of Hwa Soo Do. > As for the government backing of a single national sport (Tae Kwon Do) Kwan > Jang Nim Hwang Kee did not want the Moo Duk Kwan to be represented as sport. > This is why he registered it with the government as a martial art. It had > nothing to do with being the big fish. It did have to do with turning over the > largest school in Korea at the time (Moo Duk Kwan) to someone else after > working his whole life to create it. Actually he did support it being a sport. It is just that he flip-flopped later and claimed that he didn't once it was clear that the MDK would not play -the- lead role in the formation of TKD. One may see his support for sport through the many MDK tournaments he sponsored and through his early involvement in the formation of TKD. This flip-flop led to the split of the MDK into two of the major factions we still see today, TSD MDK and TKD MDK. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 13:46:06 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] two hurricanes in three weeks SUCK Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Funny how you can manuever when you are a Hapkidoist... since my power was out I needed a generator,, I bartered for one with some extra Hapkido mats I have!! One of my guys had two Honda generators and I was in the process of borrowing a generator for some mats when my power came on.... ONLY Hapkido guys would trade a generator for mats.... we are a sick bunch of individuals... Rick Nabors,, sorry to hear about your cable flickering... thats tough,, I bet you almost spilled your beer calling Brighthouse!! I couldn't find any gas, ice, or power on day three but I did find a twelve pack of Miller light and it helped me sleep through the heat much better,,,, yummy Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Randy Mertes" To: Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 10:30:20 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am a member of Dewitt TKD and Hapkido in Brainerd, MN, and a frequent reader of the Digest. This weekend we again have the privledge of having Grandmaster Timmermann at our dojang for an annual Hapkido seminar. I know the students are looking forward to this event. With a little Ibuprofen and some glucosamine, we should have a great time. Recently our Master Garrett Dewitt was inducted into the USA Martial Arts Hall of Fame. Like many of the others on the Digest, Master Dewitt has never been one to promote himself (the good ones never do). It is that attitude that helps make our experience so rewarding. Master Dewitt's concern was that if word got out, it would detract from the upcoming seminar I mentioned above. A valid point. HOWEVER, I don't recall signing anything and we students could not be more proud. Asking us to remain silent is like asking a young child to keep secret what is under the Christmas tree. (I know we will pay for this in situps and running the stairs but so be it.) And Grandmaster Timmermann may not read this post before he arrives...ahem. Randy Mertes 1st Dahn (or Don) --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Dennis McHenry" Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 03:03:36 GMT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Tang Soo Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: "George Peters" <> As Master Terry mentioned, Tangsoodo is the Korean pronunciation of Karate-Do. TangSooDo and KongSooDo were the names used prior to TaeSooDo and TaeKwonDo for Korean Karate. So yes, it was a generic term being used at the time. Hwang Kee even admits that his first art/schools failed because no one was familiar with HwaSooDo. That's when he met with several successful masters (Won Kuk Lee being one of them) that were teaching TangSooDo that was familiar to the public. He decided to teach it also and the rest is history. another thread.... << > The forms that he developed, such as the Basic forms 1-5 (Kee Cho), have fairly evident applications. < Any current or former Shotokan people here? I was thinking that TSD MDK's Kicho forms were pretty much a knock off of Karate's basic movement forms, the Taikyoku kata. I know that Hwang Kee claimed to have created them in 1947, but.?. >> Master Terry I agree (with this and your previous posts). I had also studied Shoto-Kan long time ago, and always wondered how HK claimed to have created those. Mac ________________________________________________________________ Get your name as your email address. Includes spam protection, 1GB storage, no ads and more Only $1.99/ month - visit http://www.mysite.com/name today! --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest