Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 06:50:08 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #377 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1700 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Chil Sang Hyung (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 2. continued history (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 3. Dennis McHenry...TSD (George Peters) 4. Tang Soo Do in Hong Kong (ken) 5. RE: Pinans / Pyung-ahn / Chanan (Donnelly, Eamonn) 6. RE: HEAD GEAR (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 7. RE: Head Gear (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 8. JiDoKwan (Frank Clay) 9. RE: Pyong Ahns (Maloney, Paul) 10. weather cancellation (J. R. West) 11. RE: Moo Duk Kwan and TSD (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 22:41:57 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Chil Sang Hyung Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sir: The Chil Sang Hyungs were developed by Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee. Chil Sang (7 Star). The Hyungs were named after the constellation little dipper. The navigators of old would find the North Star by first finding the Big Dipper and then following the handle to the little dipper and then to the North Star. The hyungs were named this to remind the practitioner that the hyung practice would help to navigate them in training. The main focus of the hyung is to help coordinate breath with hip and arm/leg movements. You are correct that Chil Sang E Ro Hyung is taught first. This is because it is taught at the orange belt level and the practitioners at that level have and easier time learning it first as opposed to the more detailed Chil Sang ill, ro hyung. Number 3 is taught at red belt, number 4 at E-Dan, number 5 at Sam Dan, Number 6 at 4th Dan and Number 7 at Yuk Dan. Finding someone outside the Moo Duk Kwan to teach you these hyungs will depend on there rank at the time they or their instructor left the Moo Duk Kwan and the time period they left the Moo Duk Kwan, because the more senior Chil Sang Hyungs here not introduced until the last few years and the junior hyungs have had refinement made. This makes it hard for people outside the MDK to instruct these forms correctly. Hope this helped JCGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 23:22:08 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] continued history Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You say not surprising but the question was what proof do you have that Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee ever trained under Lee's CDK. Just tonight I talked directly with Kwan Jang Nim HC Hwang. I asked him about some of the issues we have been discussing. He said and I quote "Grandmaster Hwang Kee never supported the Moo Duk Kwan becoming sport..." He referred me to an interview published in Black Belt Magazine November 1978. I pulled this issue from a file I have containing many old Martial Arts Magazines. The interview was translated by Grandmaster Hwang Kee's student Lee, Jeong Sook. on page 21 Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee says quote "I tried to cooperate, tried to get along with everyone in TKD...But Soo Bahk Doo is a martial art and only a martial art. It's not like the sports organization of TKD." The article was written by Richard Zimmerman As for TKD MDK General Choi and the political pressures of the time caused that. Moo Duk Kwan was the largest school in Korea, during the TKD movement 2/3's of the original TKD instructors were former students of Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim. Gen. Choi forced young men to join the military where TKD was being taught. Student of GM Hwang Kee were forced to teach under that name. Master John Chu in northeast Texas during the late 1960's until April 1980 taught TKD MDK. He said the government would not give him a visa to leave the country unless he excepted the TKD name. He said many took the TKD name as required but showed loyalty to GM Hwang Kee by keeping the Moo Duk Kwan name. GM HC Hwang said many former instructors were given help by the government to leave the Moo Duk Kwan and join Gen Choi. After the Korean War many did what they had to in order to provide for their families. This was not about a flip-flop, this was about GM Hwang Kee not complying with General Choi and being punished with political power for it. JCGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 01:08:31 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Dennis McHenry...TSD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, If I may interject one more time on this thread in that the characters for Karate-Do and Tang Soo-Do are the same. A senior master in our org told me when I started TSD that one of the reasons GM Hwang Kee chose the name for TSD was that since the characters for the Japanese Karate-Do and the Korean TSD indeed were the same, he was much less likely to be caught teaching a Korean martial art by the Japanese occupational troops since the sign outside of the schoool would say what the troops expected to find.( I was taught that GM HK returned from China prior to the end of WWII to start teaching). What have you or Master Terry heard on this? I have always accepted this to be true, just wondering if anyone else has any info on this. Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "ken" To: Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 06:35:28 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] Tang Soo Do in Hong Kong Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Group, I'm looking for some help... I am off to Hong Kong on vacation in November and I am looking to continue training (under protest of the wife). Does anyone know of a school in Hong Kong, I have found a Tae Kwon Do school which I will contact but much prefer TSD. Thanks in advance Ken Nessworthy Shinson TSD (UK) --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Donnelly, Eamonn" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:51:54 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Pinans / Pyung-ahn / Chanan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message from Bernard Redfield "There is some discussion whether Itosu Sensei developed the Pinans from Kusanko and Jae nam or if they were developed from a mysterious kata knownas "Chanan". I have recently started to learn a Hyung known as Chanan, and in the version we practice it does have a number of movements which are similar (but different) to movements in the Pyung-ahn forms. I would appreciate any further comments on this thread as well as any other information on Chanan. Kindest regards Eamonn Confidentiality Note: The information in this electronic mail ("e-mail") message may be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. 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Registered in England No. 3877626 Registered Office 256 Foleshill Road Coventry CV6 5AB --__--__-- Message: 6 From: PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] HEAD GEAR Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 12:06:37 +0100 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net thank you very much. i have had alot of trouble finding something that fits properly and that is not too heavy or bulky. the best one that i have come across is a bowing one, but it is very expensive. -----Original Message----- From: jeffrey kiral [mailto:JAKSKRU@peoplepc.com] Sent: 05 September 2004 00:15 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] HEAD GEAR the head gear that i find the best is available from ken's trading co., inc.---golden tiger martial arts supply....www.goldentiger.com. email: contact@goldentiger.com item no. THG(vinyl) or THG3(leather) available in red or black, sizes s,m,l,xl. price-24.95/49.95 u.s. (vinyl/leather) the headgear is only pictured in their catalog on page 32...i could not locate it on their website. hope this helps ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 8:38 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] HEAD GEAR > this may have been covered before, but for my benefit can anyone tell what > head gear they would recommend for training? I what to buy one that offers > good protection but doesn't feel too bulky _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1700 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the number given, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Head Gear Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 12:16:45 +0100 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net for that price I would be happy to buy one. however as you may know I am based in the UK. notwithstanding, my uncle is coming over in Nov. that should be plenty time to order please contact me off line to arrange details. Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: Jim [mailto:Jim@ko-online.com] Sent: 07 September 2004 18:22 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Head Gear Mr. McDonaldsmith was looking for head gear. Macho put out a light weight head gear called the M2000 a few years back. This headgear has a soft foam outer layer, a dense center layer & a soft inner layer. Very lighweight, with a removable ventilated top. They priced themselves out of the market with it though by charging $70. We bought them out of that item and sell them for $10. Next best is their Warrior Headgear. http://www.ko-online.com/h.html Jim _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1700 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the number given, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 06:37:02 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] JiDoKwan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Howard, The forms I have learned, Kicho 1-3 and the Pyung Ahn set, are practiced very similarly to Shotokan... at least how the Dai Ichi Shotokan performs them. I used to work out with a DIS Sensei in Richmond, VA, but never studied DIS per se. If memory serves, there was a close relationship at one point between the JDK and the MDK. Because of the this, I would expect that there be some similarities. Remember that prior to the TKD movement, or should we say Tae Soo Do movement (the name which was used briefly and before TKD) the MDK was trying to unify under KASA and was supported by the JDK. It has always amazed me about the MDK claims that the MDK did not want to be a sport and that was why they did not join the TKD revolution as it were because KASA is the Korean Amateur Sports Association. According to Grandmaster's book, the MDK and JDK were registered under the Ministry of education in 1960 (The History of the Moo Duk Kwan). However, this was rejected by KASA (http://www.indiana.edu/~iutkd/history/tkdhist2.html). I believe that Grandmaster feared, and rightly so, that in joining the TKD movement, he would have lost control of the MDK. He had built the second Kwan, the first being Chung Do Kwan (1944), and would not have wanted to give up control, and have it evolve in a direction he did not intend. This can be argued several ways, one that he was concerned about the welfare of the MDK (SBD to include JDK), he was jealous that he had been unsuccessful, and that General Choi had been, or a mixture somewhere in between. Not having been a party to what occurred, I prefer to belive in, perhaps naively, option one. Anyhow, I hope this helps. Frank --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Maloney, Paul" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:53:01 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Pyong Ahns Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > There is some discussion whether Itosu Sensei developed the Pinans from >Kusanko and Jae nam or if they were developed from a mysterious kata known >as "Chanan". > >Bernard We practice Chanan form , as an extra form to give us a better understanding of tang soo do history , you can really see that the forms Pinan or Pyong Ahn forms were taken from the Chanan form whole sequences of moves are the same , but there are subtle differences in execution of technique for example the middle section knife hand block are performed in a circular motion in the Chanan form Paul www.moodukkwan.co.uk ********************************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential, and may be subject to legal privilege, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error or think you may have done so, you may not peruse, use, disseminate, distribute or copy this message. Please notify the sender immediately and delete the original e-mail from your system. Computer viruses can be transmitted by e-mail. Recipients should check this e-mail for the presence of viruses. The Capita Group and its subsidiaries accept no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this e-mail. *********************************************************************************** --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "J. R. West" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 08:34:55 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] weather cancellation Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sorry to say that our upcoming trip on Sept. 18th to the Tampa area has been rescheduled to January 8th, 2005 due to excessive weather. I will miss seeing Mike Tomlinson and his crew, but I will look forward to some mat time with him in Jan. Don't forget that Dr. Kimm will be joining me in Jackson for a Yudo/ Korean weapons seminar on the 19th & 20th of November. If you have never been on the floor with the good Dr. during a Yudo class, you have missed something VERY special.......J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 08:47:36 -0500 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Moo Duk Kwan and TSD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<<<<>>>>> Ray, I also have heard a convincing case made that Hwang Kee worked out or visited Lee Won-Kuk as equals, not as student and instructor. I would also like to know your source, particularly if it is written. <<<>>>> <<<<<<>>>>>>>> Ray is correct on this one. It has been corraborated by too many sources outside the Moo Duk Kwan to ignore. However, that being said, I also have no doubt that Kwan Jang Nim was more interested in martial application than much of the taekwondo movement. <<<<<<>>>>>>> Well, it didn't hold up in US court though, where Tang Soo Do was found to be a common term. <<<<<<>>>>>>> I personally would like to see a lot more emphasis placed on what parts of Tang Soo Do are from Korean heritage. I would like to see all of use move away from the 2000 years old stuff. I would really like to know a lot more about the kicking innovations that were introduced in Korea. <<<>>> Yes, but I think most folks who have studied the MYDTJ believe that any form taken from it are more reconstruction than what was actually practiced in the 1700's. <<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>> I would certainly not disagree with this. The name Moo Duk Kwan, and its symbols belong to KJN Hwang Kee and his org. However I note that the Moo Duk Kwan seems to have been very selective about which former members it seems to pursue legal action against. By this I mean the TKD faction has been continuing to use Moo Duk Kwan since the early 60's and some other former Masters still use the term in their org titles without challenge. Can you tell us how KJN Hwang HC makes the decision on who to take to task? I don't mean any disrespect by my discussion. I am actually very interested in your views and input. I have just learned over the years that you have to be cautious in accepting history from one person. It has been my experience that everyone remembers things from their own particular slant, and considering many views helps clarify. Also, I don't think we have had anyone posting regularly who is still a member of USSBDF, so I really hope you will continue. Respectfully, Danny Dunn --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest