Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 10:36:07 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #378 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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RE: ki cho forms (Rick Clark) 2. For Knees - Stairs and Hundu Squats (Jesse Segovia) 3. Hurricanes (Ray Terry) 4. Shotokan/Tae Kwon Do (Rick Clark) 5. George Peters - TSD (Dennis McHenry) 6. Re: RE: Moo Duk Kwan and TSD (Ray Terry) 7. MDK (FRANK CLAY) 8. Re: RE: Pinans / Pyung-ahn / Chanan (Ray Terry) 9. Re: MDK (Ray Terry) 10. RE: TSD History (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 11. Re: JiDoKwan (Ray Terry) 12. Hwang's Return form China (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 13. Hong Kong (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 14. Re: continued history (Christopher Spiller) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] ki cho forms Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 08:59:26 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi folks, --- >From: Howard Spivey [mailto:howard.spivey@prodigy.net] >Subject: [The_Dojang] ki cho forms > >former ji do kwan person... can't speak for tsd, but the ki cho forms 1 - 3 >done in ji do kwan are virtually identical to the shotokan taikyoku forms. I come from Chung Do Kwan (Son Duk Son -> Chung Nak Young) and the Ki Cho forms are almost identical to the Tae Gook forms they taught, there are some added moves as would be expected. But it's clear to see that the root of these forms comes from the Funakoshi kata. > >Any current or former Shotokan people here? I have practiced Shotokan, and have a number of students who have upper dan grades in Shotokan. > >I was thinking that TSD MDK's Kicho forms were pretty much a knock off of >Karate's basic movement forms, the Taikyoku kata. I know that Hwang Kee >claimed to have created them in 1947, but.?. It is quite possible that he took the Taikyoku kata and added some movements and "created" Ki Cho. But like all of the Korean forms they are based on the Okinawan/Japanese versions of Kata. While it's nice to say Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do, Su Bak Do, etc. date back to the Hawrang Do and all of that just a superficial comparison of the various kata will allow you to notice the similarities. Before anyone get's their back up just consider how different the forms of Chinese martial arts look from the Okinawan, Japanese, or Korean forms. Or for that matter styles such as Penjak Selait exhibit distinct differences. Clearly the Koreans have drawn on Shotokan for the development of their current forms. Later, Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:30:13 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jesse Segovia To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] For Knees - Stairs and Hundu Squats Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My knees are so-so - I've been taking glucosamine for years and I'm OK jogging and kicking but they still creek a bit and let me know they're there. In order to take the best care of your knees, if you run up stairs is it best to keep your heels up or down? Or should you do both to even out the effect on your knees? And how good or bad are Hindu squats on knees? I see on Matt Furey's web site he claims they're very good for knees, that there's no negative impact on the knees if you do them correctly, but I've seen others claim they're awful for your knees since they're so deep and your heels come up off the ground. Jesse --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 07:35:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Hurricanes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good to hear that our fine folks down Florida way are alive and well after two big blows passing thru. Hoping that the third (won't mention the name as I don't want Brother Jeb to fine me) misses ya'll. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Rick Clark" To: Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 09:49:57 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Shotokan/Tae Kwon Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings, A couple of years ago I was sitting down with some Shotokan guys and across the table were some Tae Kwon Do guys. Of course the discussion was on the martial arts. Never one not to stir the pot a bit - I made the comment that Tae Kwon Do derived from Shotokan and explained some of the history as I know it to the group. The Shotokan guys were a bit smug and smiling that the Tae Kwon Do guys were "put in their place" and of course they were a bit upset with me for bringing this to their attention. Well to be fair and balanced - I had to tell the Shotokan guys that if the Tae Kwon Do guys were practicing the "old" style of Tae Kwon Do they just might have a more direct connection to what Funakoshi taught prior to the changes made by the JKA. As to be expected the Tae Kwon Do guys had their chance to feel a bit smug and the Shotokan guys had some long faces. BUT - while I was stirring the pot somewhat in jest - it does seem to me that the styles first taught in Korea would have been more in line with the early teaching of Funakoshi Gichin than what is currently being taught with all of the influences of the JKA (Japan Karate Association). Things like this always make me want to research a bit more and find out a few more details :-) So if anyone has some ideas it would be nice to hear them. Later, Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Dennis McHenry" Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 14:59:14 GMT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] George Peters - TSD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> He didn't start teaching until 1945 (after liberation from the occupation), and under the name of HwaSooDo. He was unsuccessful with several schools, and at a meeting with Won Kuk Lee and other instructors who were teaching TangSooDo, it was suggested to change the name to TangSooDo and teach it because the name was familiar to the public (in HK's own book, he wrote that TSD and Yudo were the MAs familiar to the public). That was in 1947, well after the occupation. You may want to check out his book, the history of the Moo Duk Kwan by Hwang Kee. It is very interesting if you are into that stuff. Mac ________________________________________________________________ Get your name as your email address. Includes spam protection, 1GB storage, no ads and more Only $1.99/ month - visit http://www.mysite.com/name today! --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Moo Duk Kwan and TSD To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 08:32:18 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > <<<<< Won-kuk prior to teaching Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. He aid his only > formal instruction was Master Yang in China during the Japanese > occupation. He never mentioned Lee Won-kuk.>>>>>> > > Ray, I also have heard a convincing case made that Hwang Kee worked out > or visited Lee Won-Kuk as equals, not as student and instructor. I > would also like to know your source, particularly if it is written. To tell you the truth I don't know if I've seen this in writing or not. One story had Hwang Kee getting to green belt in Lee's TSD. I doubt that one. I suspect that if he did train in TSD prior to using that term, he trained with Lee not -under- him. Some point to some early MDK testing pics showing Lee on the testing board. That could be because of any number of things, esp since back in the day it was common to have other masters Dan test your students to reduce the appearance of favoritism. It appears that they were not on friendly terms later on, for whatever that is worth... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "FRANK CLAY" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 10:47:43 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] MDK Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net George, The MDK did not open its doors in Nov. 194 5, after the occupation. Perhaps he is thinking of The CDK which opened in '44 under the watchful eye of the Japanese provicial Governor, Abe? Frank --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Pinans / Pyung-ahn / Chanan To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 08:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > In a message from Bernard Redfield > "There is some discussion whether Itosu Sensei developed the Pinans from > Kusanko and Jae nam or if they were developed from a mysterious kata > knownas "Chanan". > > I have recently started to learn a Hyung known as Chanan, and in the version > we practice it does have a number of movements which are similar (but > different) to movements in the Pyung-ahn forms. I would appreciate any > further comments on this thread as well as any other information on Chanan. Is a description of this form available on the web some where? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] MDK To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 08:56:07 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > The MDK did not open its doors in Nov. 194 5, after the occupation. Perhaps > he is thinking of The CDK which opened in '44 under the watchful eye of the > Japanese provicial Governor, Abe? Typo? The MDK opened November 9, 1945. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:04:48 -0500 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: TSD History Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net George, The biggest problem with this story from my prospective, and I have heard it too, Is that the dates don't match up. The Moo Duk Kwan was not opened as Tang Soo Do until November, 1946 or 47,(I don't have a reference here{not a good excuse as I should know it anyway, but I am getting older}) after WWII was over, Korea was liberated, and presumably people were trying to distance themselves from anything Japanese. I think he chose to use Tang Soo Do because it was the original Kanja/Hanja before Funikoshi changed the Kanja from Tang to Empty (Kong in Korean I think). It gave deference to China rather than Japan. And it already had name recognition. Remember, KJN Hwang's first attempt at Hwa Soo Do had failed because he couldn't attract enough students. But it is only my opinion. Danny Dunn <<<<<<<<<<<< A senior master in our org told me when I started TSD that one of the reasons GM Hwang Kee chose the name for TSD was that since the characters for the Japanese Karate-Do and the Korean TSD indeed were the same, he was much less likely to be caught teaching a Korean martial art by the Japanese occupational troops since the sign outside of the schoool would say what the troops expected to find.( I was taught that GM HK returned from China prior to the end of WWII to start teaching).>>>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] JiDoKwan To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 08:46:36 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I believe that Grandmaster feared, and rightly so, that in joining the TKD > movement, he would have lost control of the MDK. He had built the second Kwan, > the first being Chung Do Kwan (1944), and would not have wanted to give up > control, and have it evolve in a direction he did not intend. This can be > argued several ways, one that he was concerned about the welfare of the MDK > (SBD to include JDK), he was jealous that he had been unsuccessful, and that > General Choi had been, or a mixture somewhere in between. Not having been a > party to what occurred, I prefer to belive in, perhaps naively, option one. Excellent description. And I believe that the MDK was the largest kwan at this time. Option one it is. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 12:29:57 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hwang's Return form China Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sir I will research exact dates for you on the Grandmasters return from China. I do recall some reading about his return to Korea and then back to China before China became a communist country, and his reason being to visit master Yang. The only instructor to have given Grandmaster Hwang Kee any formal training. Look for a later post when I can confirm dates. I will say that the end of WW-II was officially August 15th, 1945 and the Grandmaster Hwang Kee founded the Moo Duk Kwan November 9th, 1945. Prior to the end of the war it would have been illegal for his to have taught Korean Martial Arts. (look for a later post when I have had time to confirm more dates) As for the name usage. He used the name Tang Soo Do not to fool the Japanese but for recognition. The people of Korea did not speak, read, or write Korean, with the exception of those over approximately 40 years of age. They would have learned prior to the occupation. For this reason his school the Moo Duk Kwan was not attracting many students. That was his reason for the use of the name Tang Soo Do JC --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 12:36:04 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hong Kong Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sir You might check with Master Robert Hedges in Manchester, England I can get you his e-mail but will have to look it up for you. He travels extensively in Europe and Asia. He is a great technician and a great person. I personally will not be seeing him until January. Hope this helps JC --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:04:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: continued history Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Message: 2 > From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" > > To: > Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 23:22:08 -0500 > Subject: [The_Dojang] continued history > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > As for TKD MDK General Choi and the political > pressures of the time caused > that. Moo Duk Kwan was the largest school in Korea, > during the TKD movement > 2/3's of the original TKD instructors were former > students of Hwang Kee Kwan > Jang Nim. Gen. Choi forced young men to join the > military where TKD was being > taught. Gen. Choi *forced* people to join the military? I think a better explanation might be the ROK's mandatory military service. > Student of GM Hwang Kee were forced to teach > under that name. This is certainly more believable than being forced into the Army. It's my understand (from reading his autobiography) that Gen. Choi basically mandated the Oh Do Kwan (the military Kwan) to use the name Taekwon-Do after 1955. > GM HC > Hwang said many former instructors were given help > by the government to leave > the Moo Duk Kwan and join Gen Choi. Just out of curiosity, what kind of help was needed? There may have been some problems with rank recognition but why would someone need help to leave one style and join another one? Taekwon, Chris __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest