Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 03:01:50 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #379 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1700 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Chanon Hyung (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 2. History (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 3. (no subject) (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 4. Stories and walking on water (Ray Terry) 5. training while out of town (Steve Roberts) 6. RE: For Knees - Stairs and Hundu Squats (Stovall, Craig) 7. Trademarks (Ray Terry) 8. Re: RE: Pinans / Heian / Pyong-ahn / Chanan (Bernard Redfield) 9. TSD/SBD (Charles Richards) 10. RE: jdk and tsd forms (Howard Spivey) 11. Hapkido Seminar - Oct 9, 2004 (Stephen Petermann) 12. kicho forms (Eddie Urbistondo) 13. HC Hwang (Ray Terry) 14. Jidokwan (Eddie Urbistondo) 15. weapons use (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:11:37 -0500 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Chanon Hyung Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Paul, I tried to view the video section of the website and couldn't get it. I will try again later, but do you have any video of Chanan or know where I might find one? I don't know the form, but would like to see it pereformed. Thanks for your help. Danny Dunn <<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:15:02 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] History Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sir; The US trademark of the name Tang Soo Do is a common law trademark and is enforceable. The reason for the Moo Duk Kwans selective action as been financial. There are literally thousands of infringements of these trademarks right now. Legal action is not cheap, however in light of some recent meetings, and some federation member support. The federation is taking action more aggressively. The process has been to respectfully contact those in violation an ask that they remove, change, or stop using the trademarked names or symbols. If they do not in a reasonable time frame the Moo Duk Kwan is sending a letter to them prepared by legal council. If then there is no response the federation is prepared to follow through with action, however they are selecting those with the most public view first. The book MYDBTJ was written approximately 300 years ago, and the translation may leave some room for debate concerning literal translation vs. reconstruction. These writings describe teachings much older than 300 years. JC --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:25:17 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Arce; I apologize for not attaching a title with your name however I am unaware of your correct certification no disrespect intented. The problem here is that TKD is not recognized by the Moo Duk Kwan and never has been, and those schools teaching under the name TSD MDK are not either and are in violation of trademark laws. I do not know Master Young IK Han. You claim him to be a 9th Dan in TSD who gave that certification. I can not speak for TKD but for TSD only HC Hwang Kwan Jang Nim was ever awarded this rank in the Moo Duk Kwan. I do not mean to say he is not a great Martial Artist, an I mean no disrespect. I only ask who promoted him. JC --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Stories and walking on water Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net FWIW... Up until about 20 years ago I was admittedly a Hwang Kee bigot. I had essentially grow up in the KMA's under an instructor that was a student of Hwang Kee's at the old Railroad Dojang (the MDK). Thus the stories about him not being interested in sport, being a master of martial arts by the age of 21, his years in Manchuko learning chinese arts, etc., etc. were stories that I heard weekly. As a result, during my visits to Seoul I had to find the new MDK, meet with Korean masters that studied at the railroad dojang, walk around the Seoul City Train Station (see reference to this apocryphal? story in the archives), and try to envision where the old MDK was in a city that has grown up around that train station. Then I began to do a bit of research (and through the last 10+ years of this list) I learned that not all those stories could be verified, and many were just outright false. No problem... as we now know there are a great many apocryphal stories floating around the KMAs. I guess there really was only one person in history that did, in fact, walk on water... and no, it wasn't Gen. Choi. :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:44:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve Roberts To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] training while out of town Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi All I have had very little internet access while away, but wanted to thank everyone for their tips on hapkido schools while out of town. I have found a few Tae kwon do schools, but, unfortunately...I need daytime classes and all the schools seem to be closed till 5 or 6...too late when I need to be at work at 7...oh well.... Steve --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:46:22 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: For Knees - Stairs and Hundu Squats Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> I think Hindu squats are good for knee health when done slowly, safely, and in very few numbers. By this I mean doing 1 to 10 of them very slowly while holding onto a fixed object for support. My problem with Furey is that he promotes them as a cardiovascular and muscular endurance exercise. This means doing a ton of them at a pretty fast click. For conditioning, I squat with heels on the ground, and every exercise science major on the planet agrees with me. Furey sites 3,000 (???) years of Indian wrestling as his source of safety/legitimacy for the Hindu squat. You decide. In regard to athletic development, the Hindu squat is "accordion style" squatting and pretty much isolates the quads as the driver of the movement. Proper heels-on-floor squatting with the torso sitting "back" and sinking between the legs goes a lot farther toward developing powerful hip extension (the very foundation of most athletic movement), and recruits/conditions the much more powerful (and meaningful) lower body muscle groups. Namely...the glutes and hamstrings. Furey and I agree on one thing...you can become a phenomenal athlete by just using your own bodyweight and never touching a weight. I disagree with him immensely in terms of the movements that one should employ. Squatting with heels down is just as good (if not better) for your knees than Hindus, and I believe to be much safer over the long run. Just my opinion. Hope this helps. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 12:08:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Trademarks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >The problem here is that TKD is not recognized by the Moo Duk Kwan and never >has been, and those schools teaching under the name TSD MDK are not either and >are in violation of trademark laws. There is not one MDK. Note that the Korea Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan Assoc is far larger in Korea than is Hwang Kee's MDK. Their president, CHON Jae-kyu, is a former student of Hwang Kee's and a long time leader in Kukki-Taekwondo. Along that line, can you provide a cite to the US trademark registration in question? When I do a search of Trademark Electronic Search System(Tess) it shows that the "Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan" trademark is dead. Or is that just for the MDK logo we all know and love? As for the words "Moo Duk Kwan" in the US, that trademark submittal is still under review. A status check shows, "Newly filed application, not yet assigned to an examining attorney." See http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=78404205 Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 16:36:36 -0400 From: Bernard Redfield To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: RE: Pinans / Heian / Pyong-ahn / Chanan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I would love to see the Chanan set, can anyone provide a source for the form, video or book?? bernard --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:45:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] TSD/SBD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read "Also, I don't think we have had anyone posting regularly who is still a member of USSBDF, so I really hope you will continue." MC Reply Yes, please keep your views and info from USSBDF available to listmembers. I think I'll clarify my earlier post to agree with todays posts. I don't think Hwang Kee had a student relationship with Lee, Won Kyuk, but more of as equals and amazingly around the time he gave up marketting Hwa Soo Do. My theory goes something like, Hwang Kee gives up Hwa Soo Do, has a relationship with Lee, WK notices his school is thriving, decides to teach TSD also. Maybe he learned the hyung from a book and had Lee help him polish or figure out what really happens between picture A and Picture B... Last Clarification, I mean GM Hwang, HC no disrespect, I was only clarifying that his 9th Dan from Hwang Kee would have to be in SBD and not TSD and that there are several other players Kim, Jae Jhoon among them, that are senior in TSD even though thier more recent TSD promotions did not come from Hwang Kee..... Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Howard Spivey" To: Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:44:03 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: jdk and tsd forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Howard, The forms I have learned, Kicho 1-3 and the Pyung Ahn set, are practiced very similarly to Shotokan... at least how the Dai Ichi Shotokan performs them. I used to work out with a DIS Sensei in Richmond, VA, but never studied DIS per se." frank, not only are the ki cho forms in ji do kwan similar to the shotokan forms, but several others are as well. all 5 of the heian / pyung ahn forms are very similar, as are balsak hyung (bassai dai in shotokan), kwankong hyung (kanku dai) and the series of forms involving lateral movement only (cholgi in jdk, tekki in shotokan). several (supposedly) purely korean forms, such as jitae, illyo and koryo, were added to the jdk curriculum at some point. there really can be no doubt that the 2 arts share a common heritage. --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Stephen Petermann" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 14:29:01 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Seminar - Oct 9, 2004 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net All, Jang Mu Won Hapkido is hosting their fourth annual seminar October 9, 2004 at the Colorado Belle Hotel in Laughlin Nevada. If you like Hapkido technique, then you will love this seminar. Grandmaster Chong S. Kim and his team of instructors strive to provide technique that stimulates even the most advanced practitioner. Jang Mu Won welcomes all styles. The seminar will be from 9am to 4 pm, followed by dinner at 6pm. Pre-registration for the seminar and dinner is $65, $75 at the door. Interested indivivuals may contact me via e-mail. Contact the Hotel directly for room reservations. JMW will refund the seminar fee to anyone not satisfied with the content. Sincerely, Steve Petermann spetermann53@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Eddie Urbistondo" To: Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 15:49:05 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] kicho forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just about all Tang Soo Do and Taekwondo kicho forms are identical to the Shotokan forms. In Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo, we have a set of five forms called Kibon 1-5. You can find them in Richard Chun's Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo Volume 2. You can base a whole system on those five forms. They are jam packed with footwork and fighting applications. They have a chinese flavor to them. They also have a variation of "Jebi poom tok chigi" which swallows the attacker in instead of stopping the attack as in "Jebi poom tok chigi". They are a requirement in my school along with the Taeguek and Palgwe forms. Master Urbistondo --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 14:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] HC Hwang Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Last Clarification, I mean GM Hwang, HC no disrespect, ... Agreed. I had the honor of meeting with HC Hwang at the 20 Millburn Ave location several years ago. He was a very gracious host, and I never saw anyone excute a reverse punch as well as he does... pure poetry in motion. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Eddie Urbistondo" To: Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:30:36 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Jidokwan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Do we have any Jidokwan members on this listserve? I am searching for my first Master from Jidokwan named Grand Master Li Duk Koong. He owned the World Black Belt Academy in Fort Lauderdale, Florida from 1980 - 1983. He moved to the Virgin Islands in 1983. If anyone knows anything about Master Koong please e-mail me. Thanks for any help. Master Eddie Urbistondo --__--__-- Message: 15 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] weapons use Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The following comes from our Eskrima/Arnis/Kali list. An excellent description of combat knifecraft that isn't really specific to any one martial art. Bobbie Edmonds wrote: > This is an important area that is seldom addressed. The knife has its own > unique theory of use, its own language. Wielding it competently isn't a > casual skill, it takes years to achieve anything resembling mastery. > There are no hard & fast rules for knife play, you must take into > consideration so > many different variables that it would be impossible to categorize them > minimally. If you leave the concept of "Style" out for a moment, you will > find a large portion of blade craft is ubiquitous. It has no real home other > than itself, and therefore can lend itself to any style of technique. > Due to the nebulous nature of knife fighting, there are also many abstract > theories > & motions that have no real category other than "dirty tricks & sneaky > moves". Many people get caught up in the aspects of style in the martial > arts, what system has the best moves, the most complete repertoire, hundreds > of forms, etc. This is a mistake when addressing the knife, you should > instead examine the weapon itself. What does it do? Unlike the stick, the > blade is at once powerful without the use of muscles, and lethal without the > backing of a martial art. It only has to touch you to do damage, A child > could kill with it in seconds, by accident. You must approach this area of > training with utter seriousness, and develop it to a high degree. You don't > have to necessarily be strong to use a knife, the knife has all the power. > It only has to touch you to do damage. All the knifer really provides is a > weapon delivery system and it can come in at varied speeds, with > erratic motions and awkward angles. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest