Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 20:09:03 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #382 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Today's Topics: 1. weather cancellation in Florida (michael tomlinson) 2. Jung Do Kwan (FRANK CLAY) 3. Nine Eleven (Braeswood Martial Arts) 4. more MDK and Hwang Kee info (Ray Terry) 5. Interesting article....Puzzle pieces of Korea's lost arts (Jye nigma) 6. Bernard (George Peters) 7. Financial (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 8. (no subject) (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 9. Re: Financial (Ray Terry) 10. Trademarks (Ray Terry) 11. (no subject) (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 12. MDK TM (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 13. Lineage (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 14. Hardwood floors (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:18:30 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] weather cancellation in Florida Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net due to the hurricane fever in Florida I am bummed out a little bit about the J.R. West cancellatiion in the Tampa area, but it is definately for the best, we are hammered and frazzled down here, January will be a great time to reschedule the event, that will be out of hurricane season and me and some of my maniacs will absolutely be there, can't wait to get on the mat and learn from Grandmaster J.R. West in January.... Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "FRANK CLAY" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:03:00 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Jung Do Kwan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Len, You are thinking of Lee, Yong Woo here. He was indeed a student of Lee, Won Kuk and has never denied that. In fact, if memory serves, Um, Un Kyu helped him come up with the name Jung Do Kwan while Master Um was CDK president. The controversy is that Master Hwang denied being a student of Master Lee, by insinuation. I'm not sure if he ever flat out denied it, but in the omission in his lineage that would certainly be the case. Probably led up to some of the hard feelings that would have led up to the controversial confrontation where supposedly Master Son and Master Hwang fought. I am more inclined to believe that it was a disagreement, but then we all know how rumors are. Ray, I suspect this may be a part of it. Arguably it will be harder to get a mark on the terms Moo Duk Kwan because a) it lapsed and b) it is now used internationally. Perhaps Alain could give us more of an insight? Not to mention I'm sure that there will be so many groups that oppose this, that it will not be funny. You are talking about affecting everyone from Master Pak, to Master Shin to groups such as the KTMS, which SHOULD be affected. I remember explaining in length to the USSBD that I thought I was joining them, when we became a part of the KTMS. Remember that Hackworth claimed that that was the "original" Moo Duk Kwan and that Hwang Kee had left it and started all over after they chose a new president. We know this is untrue. Further, it was claimed that Hong, Jong Soo started the KTMS, which is also untrue. Hong, Jong Soo started the TKD MDK, which is where the split occured. So now since they both have a long history of using the name MDK, that is where the question comes into play. You are talking about an event that occured in the 60's or so. My feeling is that they would have better luck marking the SBD MDK, and combinations of that. Opinions? f. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Braeswood Martial Arts" To: Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:04:01 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Nine Eleven Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Remember today! --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 08:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] more MDK and Hwang Kee info Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Seems like most of the Hwang Kee / Moo Duk Kwan questions have already been answered, but for more info see the following link: http://martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/the_dojang/digests/history.html Lots of good info on the early goings-on in the original Korean Karate kwans. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:06:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Interesting article....Puzzle pieces of Korea's lost arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It is thought that the Koto Ryu came from China via Korea, brought by Chan Busho, a Chinese warrior, in the form similar to koshijutsu. Yet it would be many hundreds of years before the style was shaped into Koto Ryu koppojutsu. The exact origin of the style is not known, but the techniques of this Ryu were organized and formulated into a proper Ryuha by Sakagami Taro Kunishige in 1542. He was also a Soke of Gyokko Ryu Koshijutsu. The two systems share many similarities, including the Sanpo Gassho (Gassho Kuji Kiri in Gyokko Ryu). There were a large amount of ninja, and some samurai, who were trained in the methods of the Koto Ryu. Momochi Sandayu is one of the most famous of all ninja (after Hattori Hanzo), and he taught ninjutsu to Ishikawa Goemon, the infamous ninja who spent most of his life as a criminal. Momochi always denied that Goemon was a member/ex-member of his school. Goemon was thought to have attempted an assasination on Toyotomi Hideyoshi, but this was in fact attempted by Hideyoshi's general, Akechi. Goemon, the 'ninja Robin Hood', was eventually caught and boiled to death in a cauldron of oil. Some historians, including Toshitsugu Takamatsu, believe that he was not caught, and the Shogunate was too shamed to admit it. In some cases, history handed down through generations can be more reliable that the written word. Koto Ryu contains one of the complete Kyusho (pressure point) scrolls of the Bujinkan System- the other coming from the Takagi Yoshin Ryu. Koto Ryu had a unique and unorthodox method of kenjutsu, handling the sword in a way that gave the observer the impression that the swordsman was unskilled, changing the gripping method and stance at will. They also have a kamae, unique to the Koto Ryu, called 'Mangetsu no Kamae', in which the sword is held above the head and the blade is used to reflect sunlight into the eyes of the opponent. Alternately, if it was raining, the blood groove (hi) was used to catch the rain water, which was then flicked at the eyes of the enemy. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 20:55:47 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Bernard Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, The forms are done with one choon-bee at the beginning and ba-roh at the end. All forms are done as learned with no choon-be between them. Do not not know about anyone elses way or method, as I am only a student of TSD. Maybe next lifetime, another art, who knows, but I doubt it. Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 20:47:35 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Financial Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You are right it is hard to pursue everyone. I talked with the person in charge of handling this for the Moo Duk Kwan last Thursday and I asked him about this issue. He said they simply can not go after everyone due to the financial commitment. They are strategically going after the head of the dragon. They are focused on the leading organization. I was told there are many that have been told by parent organizations it is OK to use the logos and other trademarked or registered material. For example the North American Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation based in Georgia was sent a cease and desist letter. They responded that they did not know they were in violation of any trademarks/service marks. They met with leaders of (THE) Moo Duk Kwan organization and have since rejoined with the USSBDMDK. By going after the leading organization many of the smaller organization will be changed as a result. There is a file now 3 inches thick of studios and organization on the list to be contacted but it will take time. As for the PR the USSBDMDK does not mean to offend to disrespect anyone. It simply wants to to be recognized as the only connected organization to the founder and to protect the integrity and purity of what Grandmaster Hwang Kee spent his life developing. JC --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 20:58:46 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You missed my point. In my analogy I said you could not say you were Walmart. Your analogy suggest I welcome to K-Mart. K-Mart may be a knock off but its name is not the same. My point is there is nothing wrong with saying Hi welcome to Tae Kwon Do I was once associated with Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. The problem is people leave the Moo Duk Kwan (and not just the Moo Duk Kwan but other organizations as well) and then they teach in a way as to represent they are still connected. If they are indeed not connected why do people insist on using the same name. I believe they are proud of their history and don't want to abandon it. If this is the case why not just stay connected. JC --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Financial To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 19:33:06 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > You are right it is hard to pursue everyone. I talked with the person in > charge of handling this for the Moo Duk Kwan last Thursday and I asked him > about this issue. He said they simply can not go after everyone due to the > financial commitment. They are strategically going after the head of the > dragon. They are focused on the leading organization. I was told there are > many that have been told by parent organizations it is OK to use the logos and > other trademarked or registered material. For example the North American Tang > Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation based in Georgia was sent a cease and desist > letter. They responded that they did not know they were in violation of any > trademarks/service marks. Looks like they blinked when they shouldn't have. "North American Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation" is a valid trademark (Service Mark) per the United States Patent and Trademark Office (Serial Number: 78286004). Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 19:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Trademarks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Interesting to play around with the US Patent and Trademark Office's online search website. See http://www.uspto.gov/main/trademarks.htm for links and info. In doing searches for things like Hwa Rang Do, Hapkido, Taekwondo, Moo Duk Kwan, Chung Do Kwan, Sin Moo, Tae Soo Do, etc... I noticed that the "Kuk Sool Won" trademark has been dead for several years. FWIW. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 21:06:08 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Pictures would not download. I too trained there, did you find the floor slick. JC --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 21:20:48 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] MDK TM Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I talked with an attorney about the status of the USSBDMDK trademarks. He shared with me information concerning what is already trademarked, what is pending, what has a service mark, and what is a common law trademark. I can tell you there are three service marks and three trademarks concerning the organizations name and the use of the name. There are also three pending trademarks on variations of the names. Soo Bahk Do, Tang Soo Do and Moo Duk Kwan. There is also a current trademark and registration mark on the Moo Duk Kwan symbol and the Soo Bahk Do logo. I was asked to not give out any more information beyond what I have done here due to current litigation in progress. JC --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 21:39:42 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Lineage Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am just curious and I know it will depend on what you study, but how many martial artist here in this forum can trace there linage back to Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee with no break or split. Or if you train in another style can trace your lineage back to one of the original 5 kwans with no break or split. My lineage is My instructor Kris Poole Sa Bom Nim My instructors instructor H C Hwang Kwan Jang Nim (Current Moo Duk Kwan president) His instructor Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim (Moo Duk Kwan founder Deceased) I am not talking about the head of you organization or federation but the founder of the art you study' JC --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 20:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Hardwood floors Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Pictures would not download. I too trained there, did you find the floor > slick. Anyone else have problems seeing the pics @ http://martialartsresource.com/korean/pics.htm If so, please let me know so I can do some fix'in. To tell you the truth, I don't recall much about the floor. That was seven years ago next month. I seem to recall that it was a very solid hardwood floor and the class was doing falls and rolls on it. Basic falls and rolls, but still... Ouch! :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest