Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 16:25:02 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #388 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1700 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Gladewater SBD, et al (George Peters) 2. Re: The MDK-s (Bruce Sims) 3. Re: kwan jang NIM (Klaas Barends) 4. RE: moodukkwan tangsoodo (Jeffery Dean Sr.) 5. RE: Old Photo (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 6. Congratulations (Rudy Timmerman) 7. Hwang Kee Picture (Charles Richards) 8. moodukkwon tangsoodo (Dennis McHenry) 9. Tang Soo Do (Charles Richards) 10. MDK (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 11. RE: MDK symbol (Rick Clark) 12. Juntong Moosool?! (chet reyes) 13. Re: The_Dojang digest Question to Master West? (TKDgalSamm@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 02:01:26 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Gladewater SBD, et al Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Esteemed Membership, Direct lineage is OBVIOUSLY tracable from Master to student and so on down the line, not by organizational bounderies. Oganizational bounderies are worthless unless of course you wish to claim some sort of exclusive status that I do not see ANY org is deserving of, as it would seem that all people have egos and sooner or later will "add" or "make a slight change" to make it better suit THEIR tastes, not the founder's. Rather than tout organiztional membership as proof of " I'm better than you", why not put forward what would drive a very high ranking officer with GM HK's org to leave after about 35(this is a guess, not cold fact, although close)years and go his own way, as did others. Fathers should not anger children so. Ergo: why cop a 'tude dude, when a few words to the right folks might bring reconciliation. In closing, I was taught that one SHOULD be able to trace to the founder, but only as a first gauge of "purity". As time goes by, even that would seem to be in question in some Dojangs. Even though I do not have a long lineage chart in my many meanderings through life, I still always try to remember that the guy across the mat or in the school down the road is trying to ultimately reach the same goal that martial artists everywhere SHOULD be trying to reach, and that is to ultimately become a better person. I can't do that with a stick up my hindquarters. I will choose to become part of the solution, not the root of the problem. I beg your forgiveness, Master Terry. I grow weary of this endless prattle and lack restraint. Perhaps in another 50 years? Respectfully, George Student of Marcus Murtaugh, Sabumnim Students of C.S. Kim, Choong Jae Nim Student of Song Ki Kim, Kwan Jang Nim Students of Hwang Kee, Kwan Jang Nim Go in peace _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:51:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The MDK-s Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....Jeez. Ain't politics grand. :( "......Sorry, but lineage (even tho it won't save your butt in a dark alley) is lineage... and it cannot be changed by politics. I'm sure some would like to change who their instructors or students were after-the-fact, but it just doesn't work that way. Your students are your students, and your instructors are your instructors..." Oh, c'mon, Ray. Tell the man! Think of it like the "begats" in the Bible. :-) Then after you are done we can all listen to why what you have shared confirms that whatever you practice is not QUITE as authentic as somebody elses'. Sorry to be so cynical but being over here for even the short time (six days) that I have has really put a lot of things in perspective. Not to sound snotty but suddenly an awful lot of the whining about whose is what authority on which sounds pretty juvenile. I sat over breakfast with Kim Yun Sang and a couple of students this morning and had an extraordinary talk about the role and responsibilities of the teacher and his methods in modern Mu-Do. Yesterday we talked about the nature of Hapkiyusool vs Hapkido as projected into the future about 5-10 years. After night training we all, likewise, go down for a bite before heading home and those talks are worth gold! Bump that up against 3 hours of training, 2x a day and there is nothing quite like it. Its really hard to go back to hearing folks dick-around about who doing "real" such&such art when there are experiences like this to be had. FWIW. Best Wishes from Taejeons' VR Net Computer Room, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 18:40:43 +0800 From: Klaas Barends To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: kwan jang NIM Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > AND, before we go: > > I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but can we PLEASE stop referring to > people in the third person with the honorific "nim" at the end of their > title....Their title is "sa bum" or "kwan jang", and "nim" is only used when > speaking directly TO them, and not ABOUT them.....Thanx Not true. When I talk about someone who is older, I still have to use the "nim" ending to the title. -- mvg. Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Jeffery Dean Sr." To: Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:05:46 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: moodukkwan tangsoodo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Hilland --- "Do we want our heritage to be one of sharing what we know with anyone willing to learn without any strings attached or do we want our legacy to be one with a history of legal battles that has nothing to do with the actual practice? " Well said Dean Sr. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:33:44 -0500 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Old Photo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Mac, You are correct that it is not Jae Chul Shin in the photo, though I can't say who it is. And thank you Master West for the correction. Danny Dunn <<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:58:18 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Congratulations Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Congratulations to Ms. Gittleman on her recent promotion to 2nd Dan! Best wishes from your friends at NKMAA. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:17:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hwang Kee Picture Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read "I noticed on one of the other photos it lists "Hwang Kee, Victor Martinov, Jae Jul Shin, Chuck Norris", when actually it looks like Jae Joon Kim, not Jae Jul Shin. http://community.webshots.com/photo/17626109/17626109yKPDFmOGyv" MC Reply Mac should know he trained with Jae Joon Kim. That is not Shin, Jae Chul in the picture. Easy mistake as Norris and Shin both acknowledge the student-teacher relationship. Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Dennis McHenry" Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 14:39:33 GMT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] moodukkwon tangsoodo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Hilland, a most excellent post. ________________________________________________________________ Get your name as your email address. Includes spam protection, 1GB storage, no ads and more Only $1.99/ month - visit http://www.mysite.com/name today! --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:43:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] Tang Soo Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Hilland, I enjoyed your post. If only we could work on furthering this 60 years young art (Tang Soo Do), and accept slight evalutions and variations, then we could advance the art like the Jackson homecomings have advanced HKD in the US. Anyway, anyone interested in such a seminar for TSD/TKD guys, you still have time to register for our 4th Annual Moja Kwan Moo Do Camp at beautiful Red Top Mountain, here in North Georgia. Sunday September 26th all day, with a special dinner Saturday September 25th honoring Hodder Kwan Jang's 40th anniversary. FWIW, my students are learning Moja Kwan Moo Do - the martial way of the Unity/harmonious house. They understand our roots are from the Moo Duk Kwan, and that our patterns are the Tang Soo Do versions of Funakoshi's Kata. Since we do not practice the Chil Sungs and do not process rank through USSBD we are not Moo Duk Kwan. The AAU thinks we are doing MDK patterns, but really we are doing Tang Soo Do patterns :-) FWIW Kwan is house/gym so to say you are MDK does mean you are part of the Hwang's house. If you are not affiliated, it's probably better to say you are Tang Soo Do like Shin, Jae Chul does... Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:09:12 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] MDK Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sir: I agree it is sad, however I feel it necessary and obviously so does the US SBD MDK Fed. to protect it name. This discussion of history and lineage is getting old and really not getting anywhere so this will be my last post on the subject. If Hwang Kee's Moo Duk Kwan has a particular philosophy (and it does), and a student of the Hwang Kee's Moo Duk Kwan does not agree and decides to leave (as has happened through out the MDK history) he/she certainly has that right, however if they open a new school or organization and call it by the same name, they cause confusion. For example if a new student comes to my do-jang to visit and I explain the philosophy and technical aspects of the Moo Duk Kwan, and then he visits another Moo Duk Kwan school and they explain a different philosophy and different techniques which one is the student to believe is Moo Duk Kwan. I just think if people leave the teaching of Soo Bahk Do (Tang Soo Do) Moo Duk Kwan they should not attempt to use the same name unless they intend to teach the same philosophy and technical aspects set forth by its founder. In which case they should not have left at all. In the US we are free to do as we want with in the guidelines of the law. People have the right to teach anything they want. The US SBD MDK and its members are just trying to say to the public. Those individuals are not associated with us. This is not intended to down play anyone or be disrespectful but a chevy is a chevy and a ford is a ford. Moo Duk Kwan should be Moo Duk Kwan. As I said this is my last post concerning trademark infringements, all other inquiries should be asked of the US SBD MDK Fed. headquarters and its legal representatives. master Terry provided some links for trademark research that may be helpful. As I know now the following is the current trademarks by the US SBD MDK Fed. INC. TRADEMARKED --- US Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation --- Moo Duk Kwan (Logo) --- Soo Bahk Do (Logo) PENDING TM ---Moo Duk Kwan (Words only) ---Soo Bahk Do (Words only) ---US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation Respectfully JC --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] MDK symbol Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:22:01 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi John, > From: John Hancock [mailto:midnight503@hotmail.com] > OK...ya got me. So it isn't 'illegal' to use the MDK name or the old > symbo. > > It still is unethical...and I won't participate in its use. I don't > understand why people would want to use the name of an organization they > are not a member of. Listing it in your lineage is one thing...going > around saying you are MDK is another thing...and hanging a shingle with > MDK on it outside your school is something else all together. > > JH You might want to think about an example from other martial arts. Judo for example has a number of different organizations from which you can get legitimate rank, and all of them refer to their art as Judo. Same with Aikido, you have a number of different organizations that have any number of branches. By and large people will say they practice Aikido and not Yoshinkai Aikido, or Ki Society Aikido, or Hombu Aikdo, or . . . . Rick Clark If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking. --General George S. Patton www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:21:15 -0700 (PDT) From: chet reyes To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Juntong Moosool?! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi all, I'm in search of a Hapkido dojang (St. Charles, IL) for both my 7 year old and myself. I found one that is fairly close to my resident and priced accordingly. My big concern is that I can't find any information on the net regarding the association or the Grand Master. Can anyone provide information regarding the "World Jungtong Moosool Association" or about Grand Master Chu S. Ma? Thanks in advance - --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! --__--__-- Message: 13 From: TKDgalSamm@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:31:16 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest Question to Master West? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 9/15/2004 6:22:40 AM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but can we PLEASE stop referring to > people in the third person with the honorific "nim" at the end of their > title....Their title is "sa bum" or "kwan jang", and "nim" is only used when > speaking directly TO them, and not ABOUT them.....Thanx JRW > www.hapkido.com > Regarding this, we were taught to say to the instructor at the end of a class to say <> ........ which I am sure is spelled SO SO SO wrong BUT we were told it was saying the equal to: teacher, thank you. Do you think this might be a true (or sort of) translation? Or have I been had again? Thanks! Respectfully, Loretta --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest