Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 06:46:05 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #390 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1700 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Old Photo (Master Arce) 2. Re: Sa bum and Kwan jang (Sr. Instructor Seaforth) 3. Example from another art (John Hancock) 4. Re: Violation (ABurrese@aol.com) 5. Re: Nim (ABurrese@aol.com) 6. Re: sabomnim, kamsahamnida (ABurrese@aol.com) 7. Photo (Chris Holmes) 8. lineage...sorry (L. Veuleman) 9. Re: Master Ma (Bruce Sims) 10. Re: Sharing Traditions (Bruce Sims) 11. Re: NIM (Klaas Barends) 12. Congrats (Braeswood Martial Arts) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:32:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Master Arce To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Old Photo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Looks like Grand Master JJ Kim (NOT Grand Master JC Shin) to me... http://community.webshots.com/photo/17626109/17626109yKPDFmOGyv __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:32:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "Sr. Instructor Seaforth" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Cc: Trina Instructor Hoadley-Seaforth Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Sa bum and Kwan jang Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Can someone (korean or fluent in Korean) please explain to me what the difference is between "Sabumnim" and "Kwanjangnim". Growing up in North America, we tend to use Sabumnim for Master, and Kwanjangnim for Grandmaster. To me (non-korean) it seems to me that Sabumnim is probably a closer translation to instructor / teacher, while Kwanjangnim is closer to School leader which in most cases would be a Master (since Grandmasters are no longer head of systems or styles or we would not have so many Grandmasters). Sabum is the same as Sifu and Sensei. And those terms both are used for instructors, weather 1st Dan Black belt or gold sash or 4th. Thank you in advance, Sr. Instructor Seaforth sr_instructor_seaforth@yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "John Hancock" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 21:41:21 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Example from another art Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Clark, I think I get what you are referring to....but this could cause some confusion.  Judo...is an art.  Tang Soo Do...is an art.  But these are generalized terms today.  There are many schools of Judo...and today there are many schools of Tang Soo Do.  However...today...there is only one school of Soo Bahk Do (don't argue with me about Soo Bahk International...they don't, and I don't believe can, legally ad the 'Do' to their title).  The Moo Duk Kwan is a 'specific school' founded by a 'specific' individual.  The unique condition that Tang Soo Do has delt with is that orginally there many schools of Tang Soo Do, but that changed when the Kwan Consolidation happenned and Tae Kwon Do came about.  Thus...when Hwang Kee refused to participate...the MDK became the only surviving school using Tang Soo Do as its art name.  However, when Hwang Kee decided to create his new art, Soo Bahk Do, and the MDK officially adopted the name change...that left only those school which had left the MDK post the TKD movement doing Tang Soo Do (ergo...why we are seeing NEW Kwan today that do TSD).  The situation is unique to the MDK and the art of TSD.  I can't think of any other school that has gone through these kind of name changes.  It isn't any wonder that today, as we try to teach the legitimate and accurate history of the school and the arts' evolutions...we are faced with obsticles of incredulousness and obstination while dealing with the quagmire of facts, myths and misnomers. JH   ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! --__--__-- Message: 4 From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 22:55:48 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Violation Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Frank asked Alain? Any comments on that one? *************** Without doing research, I can't answer this one. I'm not up on copyright and trademark law. Though I may have to be soon, I had a potential client call today asking some questions on trademark issues. Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:04:45 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Nim Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >> AND, before we go: >> >> I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but can we PLEASE stop referring to >> people in the third person with the honorific "nim" at the end of their >> title....Their title is "sa bum" or "kwan jang", and "nim" is only used when >> speaking directly TO them, and not ABOUT them.....Thanx > >Not true. > >When I talk about someone who is older, I still have to use the "nim" ending to >the title. the honorific "nim" is used when talking TO or ABOUT them. I often talk about Sabomnim and Kwanjangnim with Yi-saeng and she refers to them with the "nim" as do I. Last week, we saw a young boy do a TKD demonstration, and I wondered what TKD school he studies at, since I know a number of the TKD instructors in town. Wanting to practice my Korean, I asked, "Sabom, nugu se yo?" Yi-saeng was there with me and quickly corrected me and told me to say "Sabomnim, nugu se yo?" I saw this often in Korea too. Teachers at the school I taught at would talk about Kwanjangnim of the school. (Nothing to do with martial arts, he was the school owner) You do not use nim when referring to yourself. This is spoken or written. You would never refer to yourself with the nim or sign something with the nim attached to your title. Hope this helps. With the baby, I've increased my study of Korean so Mom and her won't be able to talk about me while I'm in the room, since we are going to raise her with both English and Korean. Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:10:32 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: sabomnim, kamsahamnida Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>Regarding this, we were taught to say to the instructor at the end of a class >>to say <> ........ which I am sure is spelled >>SO SO SO wrong BUT we were told it was saying the equal to: teacher, thank you. >>Do you think this might be a true (or sort of) translation? Or have I been >>had again? Thanks! >> >>Respectfully, >>Loretta Loretta, Sabomnim is your teacher's title with the honorific nim added, which I just wrote about in another post, and there are two ways to say thankyou. 1. kamsahamnida 2. komapsumnida. So yes, you are being taught Teacher, thank you. I can't hear how you are pronouncing it, but you have not been "had." Yours in Training, Alain _www.burrese.com_ (http://www.burrese.com) --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Chris Holmes" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 22:35:00 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Photo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It's been a good 7 years since I saw GM Jae Joon Kim but that does look like it could be him in his youger days..... Of course the photo has got to be from the 70's by the look of it so I can't be sure.... Speaking of Jae Joon Kim does anyone know which son teaches the children at their school. I know it's not the oldest but I don't know which one of the younger ones it is..... He was phenomenal at a seminar in Bogalusa LA... 7 or so years ago..... Honestly he impressed me a lot more than GM Jae Joon Kim..... He was a lot more friendly and willing to help everyone... Chris Holmes _________________________________________________________________ Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 21:51:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "L. Veuleman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] lineage...sorry Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ya'll, Sorry to chime in on this so late, and since Nathan gave his lineage, I don't have to give mine, but I do want to make a point. I sometimes see people claim lineage just because they are tested by an individual. For instance, if someone was to test under a board that consisted of, say Master Mac (sorry to bring you into this), then say they were a direct student of Master Mac by claiming that lineage, then that would not be very correct in my opinion. When I tested for my second degree, I did so under Dr. Jordan, my instructors instructor. One of my fellow testing students said I was now "under the umbrella" as one of Docs students. Well, thats kinda screwey, cause I can count on two hands the number of times he and I have talked, and he has never directly taught me anything....so how can he be? That doesn't mean he and I have a bad relationship, we just arn't close, and he isn't my instructor. He is the style head for our group. An instructor should be someone you have formed a relationship with, someone you can eat hotdogs and drink a beer with at their house, you know? That would be like Nathan saying Doc was his teacher now, since Nathan tested under the Board. I'd kick his ass. Who needs all that violence. :) My teacher hasn't taught me formally since 1999 just because he chooses not to teach but we still have a friendship. So who do I belong to now? Haven't quite figured that out, but maybe someone will pick me up one day, till then I learn from lots of people, and am not direct students of their lineage, just appreciative of their knowledge and willingness to share. And on that note, an applaud to you Jere. Well put. Nathan (and list), Travis Bush (one of our groups black belts that is our age) is now a daddy. Holly crap, he's multiplying. Charlie V --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:21:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Master Ma Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Chet: "..... Can anyone provide information regarding the "World Jungtong Moosool Association" or about Grand Master Chu S. Ma?...." There are a lot of very crumby instructors out in the suburbs but I can tell you that Master Ma is not one of them. He and his brother run two schools in the Chicago area--- St Charles and Chicago proper, respectively. His tradition proceeds from the Kuk Sool Won style of Hapkido. He cares about his students, has a solid curriculum, and gives guidance and instruction commensurate with what he charges. I suppose there are probably some political bits involved there somewhere (having been tied into KSW at one time) but from an educational standpoint you get sound training by a more than competent teacher. Can't ask for much more than that. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:37:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Sharing Traditions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jere: "...."Do we want our heritage to be one of sharing what we know one willing to learn without any strings attached or do we want our legacy to be one with a history of legal battles that has nothing to do with the actual practice? ....." You and I have talked often enough to know that I support exactly the atmosphere that you are speaking to. I am responding because I have had an interesting connundrum presented to me just along these lines. Dojunim Kim Yun Sang has opened his school, students and even his house to me and has been nothing less than extraordinary in sharing documents, resources and guidance. The training has been among arguably the finest people I have met in my life, and has challenged me to push to greater heights of performance. I have accrued knowledge, bruises, and wrist pain well beyond anything I have had before. His special gift to me has been the honor of taping (cam-corder) his opening/ foundation curriculum (kebonsu) as well as photgraphing my choice of the documents in his archives for my own personal edification. Now--- heres' the question. Todd (Miller) and Kevin (Sogor) flew over on the same plane with me and are down in Taegu (even as I write) at the school of Lim Hyun Su. The thought was that we might hook-up on Sunday for our flight back on Monday and compare notes on our relative experiences. Hence the problem. a.) Dojunim Kim may well never know if I share information, but has asked me not to and that this opportunity to record his curriculum is only the second time in his life that he has allowed it. b.) On the other hand, Hapkido is degenerating into a hodge-podge of misc techniques because people are unable to share among themselves the original training material and are making do with whatever they can find. Maybe this would be a good time to examine your question in considerably more depth relative to what we owe our teachers compared with what we owe the art (and each other). Thoughts? Comments? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:56:00 +0800 From: Klaas Barends To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: NIM Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Perhaps Alain or some of the other Korean speakers could > provide backup on this point. I have heard Dr. Kimm state that this > particular "misuse" is most odd sounding to him...JRW www.hapkido.com I do speak a little Korean and right now I am surrounded by Koreans :-) So I asked several of them. Sometimes, when you speak about someone (is in the third person) you don't use the nim-suffix and when you talk about yourself, you don't use the nim-suffix either. You don't use the nim-suffix when you address a person who is younger than you are. But when there are other people around (especially if they are younger then the person you are addressing) it would be a good thing to use the nim-suffix anyway. Examples: If we would meet, and talk about one of your instructors (and the instructor would be younger as me) we could talk about 'John Doe sabum' and when you have a word with this John Doe, you could refer to him as 'John Doe sabum' or 'John Sabum' (NOT: Doe sabum!). But when you talk to John sabum and some of his students are present, refer to him as 'John Doe sabumnim' anyway. To be on the safe side, use the nim-suffix, unless you are talking about yourself. -- mvg. Klaas Barends Dutch H.K.D Federation http://www.hapkido.nl/ International H.K.D Training Center http://www.sangmookwan.com/ --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Braeswood Martial Arts" To: Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 07:53:21 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Congrats Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Joan, Congrats on your well deserved 2nd Dahn. Your training and dedication is a strong example in your dojang. Keep up the great work and I hope you can make it to the Master's Tour next month. Kat --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest