Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 03:01:55 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #392 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1700 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Sa Bom (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 2. Non-Profit (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 3. RE: honorifics (Kip McCormick) 4. Re: Non-Profit (Ray Terry) 5. Sharing Traditions (Barrie Restall) 6. RE: honorifics (Rick Clark) 7. RE: Kwanjang (John Johnson) 8. RE: -Nim (John Johnson) 9. Re: Kwanjang (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:21:36 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sa Bom Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I had a chance today to look up the term Sa Bom it was as follows Sa---teacher, instructor, master, army division Bom---law, rule, custom: pattern, model These are the literal translation equivalents. In the text we use the term, Master Model is the example. This was information given to me at the 2000 Ko Dan Ja Shim Sa by H C Hwang Sa Bom Nim. JC --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:29:41 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Non-Profit Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Frank If you are still on the historical and lineage issue let me just say that the US SBD MDK is a non-profit organization and HC Hwang Sa Bom Nim is not a greedy man. Although you have the right to your opinion and I respect that. Having been at national board meetings I can assure you the focus is not about financial assets, charging for the use of a name or a reputation. The focus has been protecting what we stand for as martial artist and creating a lawful system to insure others don't represent themselves as associated with us in a negative light. The USSBDMDK has to meet its financial duties but it is not set up as money machine, as some other organizations are. This is one of the philosophies we are trying to protect. JC --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Kip McCormick" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] honorifics Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:54:30 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Okay guys, I've been outta the net for a couple of weeks. My apologies up front because I know I'll upset some people with this, but don't you think we go a little too far with titles when we're dealing with non-Korean instructors? Why not just "sir" or "ma'am"? I understand that it's necessary in a Korean dojang if I'm in Korea (been there, done that, trained in a Korean dojang for a long time, speak the language, I understand and it's ESSENTIAL in Korea -- when in Rome do what the Romans do...right?). But here, if my master is not Korean, why do I still need to refer to him in Korean with an honorific that equals "sir"? Why not just "sir" (or ma'am -- sorry ladies and sorry, too, to those cross dressing male instructors)? The argument from the opposite side is, "well, it's a Korean martial art so we need to keep this part of the art alive, it's tradition." Okay, got it, Korean flag on the wall, Korean martial art, I should know the terms, but I think it's kind of silly for us to be referring to each other in Korean honorifics when we're not Korean. If you have a guest instructor from Korea, yep, you need to refer to him or her using Korean honorifics (back to my point of knowing the terms). If you go to Korea, yep, use the terminology and Korean honorifics. Wait, let me put on my body armor. Okay, I'm ready for the rounds to crash on top of me. Thoughts? Kip "If I drink more soju my Korean will improve greatly" McCormick also, I dance really well and I'm terribly handsome if I drink a lot of soju, so I think... --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Non-Profit To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > If you are still on the historical and lineage issue let me just say that the > US SBD MDK is a non-profit organization and HC Hwang Sa Bom Nim is not a > greedy man. The USTU is a 501c3 (non-profit)... nuff said? I'm not saying that HC H and your group are as bad as all that, but... one cannot claim to be 'good and just' simply because you are a non-profit (501c3) organization. In short, I think Jere's post summed it up beautifully and I sincerely hope it gets to people like HC Hwang and others that are pulling the strings at the SBD MDK. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Barrie Restall" To: Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:21:06 +1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sharing Traditions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Bruce, I presume you gave your word to Dojonim Kim, so I dont believe you seriously consider sharing the detail. If you did so I would have to apologise to Dojonim Kim for my poor judgement. I'll back my judgement. Kind regards Barrie Restall --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] honorifics Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:12:25 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: Kip McCormick [mailto:kiplindakorea@hotmail.com] > but I think it's kind of silly for us to be referring to each other in > Korean honorifics when we're not Korean. You are on the money here Kip, as far as I am concerned. > Wait, let me put on my body armor. Okay, I'm ready for the rounds to > crash on top of me. Thoughts? Personally I would like to be able to use only English terms and forget all of the other language stuff. As an example: When the Kwans first started teaching I don't think there is any serious person out there who thinks that what was taught was nothing more that warmed over Japanese / Okinawan Karate. The forms were the Pyung-Ahn read Pinan / Heian. I am sure counting, terms for techniques and the like were in Korean NOT Japanese language as they had been taught. So why should we use a foreign language when we teach? It's been my experience that many will try to be more Korean than Koreans, heck I know one guy from the south that would speak in "pidgin English" to mimic his Korean instructor. What a funny and rather sad thing to see. I pulled this guy to the side and even tried to explain why this was so silly and how if he spoke like this around the Korean instructor he would never pick up English. > Kip "If I drink more soju my Korean will improve greatly" McCormick > also, I dance really well and I'm terribly handsome if I drink a lot of > soju, so I think... Oh to have a bit of Soju with some pin dit tak (no idea if it's spelled correctly)! One good thing about Korea is the food :-) Rick Clark If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking. --General George S. Patton www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "John Johnson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kwanjang Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 01:20:41 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In Korea the term "Kwanjang-nim" is used for the school head or director. "Kwan" loosely means school, as in a system of thought (go back to the old days when kwans ruled KMA and you'll understand the meaning). "Jang" just means head or director. "Nim" is an honorific suffix used when addressing someone with a title. Therefore, "SonSaeng" (teacher) becomes "SonSaengNim" and "SaBeom" (instructor) changes to "SaBeomNim" when you talk to someone with that title. Oh, I usually captialize the beginning of each syllable in order to help people understand how to pronounce Korean correctly. By no means is it supposed to be a grammatically correct method of writing the Romanization of Korean. John A. Johnson 4th dan, UlJiKwan KHF 4th dan, TKD >From: Ray Terry >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) >Subject: [The_Dojang] Kwanjang >Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:33:45 -0700 (PDT) > >People in the martial arts think of Kwanjang as a martial arts title or >term or dan level, but it is not.  It is just a generic term for (as I >recall) owner or director. > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list,  1700 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "John Johnson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] -Nim Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 01:27:06 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The suffix "-nim" is used whenever addressing someone with a title or rank. To not do so would no only disrespect the person, but also the position. Even when when my high school principal talks to me, he says "Johnson SonSaengNim", which literally means "Johnson teacher". Also, when my hapkido teacher talks about me he refers to me as "Johnson SaBomNim", or "Johnson Instructor". These are both titles earned either through hard work physical or educational work, and to deny someone of that would be an horrible insult. John A. Johnson 4th dan, UlJiKwan, KHF 4th dan, TKD >From: "FRANK CLAY" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] -Nim >Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 09:53:19 -0500 > >Klaas, > ><younger than >you are. But when there are other people around (especially if they >are >younger then the person you are addressing) it would be a good thing >to >use the nim-suffix anyway.>> > >I don't know that this is accurate. If I am your junior in age, but >your senior in position (meaning general societal position, as well >as, martial art} you would still refer to me as XYZ-nim. In a >typical relationship where all things are equal, then I believe you >would be correct. > >Frank >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list,  1700 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang ------------------------------------------------------------------------ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kwanjang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > In Korea the term "Kwanjang-nim" is used for the school head or director. > "Kwan" loosely means school, as in a system of thought (go back to the > old days when kwans ruled KMA and you'll understand the meaning). "Jang" > just means head or director. I seem to recall that an owner of a building, e.g. an apartment building, was referred to as a kwanjang. Did I remember that correctly? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest